Var Instead of R-Andro?

Oct 11, 2017
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#21
No MNK99, I havent tried 4-dhea, only interested in DHT compounds. I must have tried about 20 bottles of R andro over the past few years, with very good results, practically no shut down at all. Works very well with T3, tudca, taurine, gelatin etc, with CD nuts protocol in between cycles.
 
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Oct 11, 2017
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#22
Yeah I think androsterone is more of a thyroid mimic and not really a steriod per se, hence no shut down. Could be wrong, but that's my experience.

Even DHT steriods like primobolan will shut you down, androsterone is different, works more on the mitochondria and bumps up DHT in a more natural way.
 
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Walker

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#23
I see. i believe @wuf once was injured by 4-DHEA, and hence, that's one example that would add somewhat to people's apprehension, including yours towards trying 4-DHEA.

To put it more specifically, WUF had PFS and or still does. AND once told me that 4-dhea (or some other thing once made him crash, some prohormone, not the 2 that are mostly discussed in this whole thing, esp. on swole source). Randro is good too. I like it. I did 12-14bottles last year in 2 long cycles. same with 4andro (probably half the bottles). put on 22 or so lb. kept most that until nearly a yr later. injured (no it wasn't a pfs crash, it was literal overtraining/ hyperflexibility). no shut down here either. credit 30-40% recovery to that. Tho I did fast like fucking crazy. 2mo juice. 1mo+ water, and weeks more at times. basically 24-30hrs everyday, until i realized im super skinny. then took it easier, bc at that point it was just vanity. ripped 170-192lb+. was ripped pre pfs . now just really ripped. i did the herbs from cd's. i realize that's not the protocol. (did ev else nearly, way way before this, bc I cut a ton of bodyfat. not a noob. not a meathead either. not ignorant to health like most ppl).

that's good it didn't crash you. BUT maybe it's best to not take it just in case. ppl seem against it. if it's good for some and never hurt them than they can continue with it. I'm no prohormone/steroid expert. there are some here, they're really into it. It was DHEA something. I could obviously learn which number dhea, but ppl don't really expect me to remember every single conversation/reading from 2yrs ago do they??
@wuf was "injured" by 5-DHEA, which is the standard DHEA you can buy off the shelf.
 

Walker

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#25
I don't know that they are marketing it as a leaning tool. It seems to be for bulking too. The product description of musclegelz' site claims "The 4-DHEA also lacks the calorie burning thermogenic properties, therefore offering superior calorie retention for a bulking effect. This increased anabolic potency and reduced thermogenic action will lead to noticeable gains in strength, lean tissue growth, and weight gain."

Why do you think that 4-andro worked so well for you but may not in others? Did you have low-t as a symptom? My main issues as far as I can tell are mainly low DHT, Low allopregnenelone from reduced 5-ar. However, I also have bloods confirming low T. Strangely my free T is still in range.
4-Andro worked well for me as I had low estrogen, I believe. Or at least bio-unavailable estrogen. PFS for me mimicked low estrogen horribly. Which is understandable given that Saw Palmetto inhibits aromatase as well as 5AR. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've had copper toxicity issues for a while, even prior to PFS. Always had lower estrogen, and responded well to pro-estrogenic things. I was more of a high DHT/low E type individual. So that's why I believe it helped me so much.
 
Nov 28, 2017
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#26
4-Andro worked well for me as I had low estrogen, I believe. Or at least bio-unavailable estrogen. PFS for me mimicked low estrogen horribly. Which is understandable given that Saw Palmetto inhibits aromatase as well as 5AR. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've had copper toxicity issues for a while, even prior to PFS. Always had lower estrogen, and responded well to pro-estrogenic things. I was more of a high DHT/low E type individual. So that's why I believe it helped me so much.
So you never took fin? What are the symptoms of low-e you experienced? I have never had my estoidiol tested, but I have heard that estradiol tests are not the whole picture with e, as estradiol is just one kind of estrogen. I do have recent bloods confirming low T, and low dht, though.
 

Walker

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#27
So you never took fin? What are the symptoms of low-e you experienced? I have never had my estoidiol tested, but I have heard that estradiol tests are not the whole picture with e, as estradiol is just one kind of estrogen. I do have recent bloods confirming low T, and low dht, though.
Negative, my "PFS" was induced by Saw Palmetto extract. Symptoms included, but not limited to: Dry skin, dry lips, dehydration, loss of libido, good morning wood no wood when its time for sex (originally I had no morning wood at all, but this slowly returned as I recovered), loss of wood while having sex, loss of sensitivity, dry gland (penis), white gland, loss of girth, irritability, mood swings, dht rage (aggression you take out on others), dull orgasm, hesitation just before urinating, night sweats, loss of appetite, constant fatigue, lethargy, constipation (due to dehydration), diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming), obsessive thoughts.....

Those are just the sides I experienced related to low estrogen, but it was almost every known low estrogen side effect in the book. I would agree with your comment on the blood test, but when your estradiol is so low that it's not readable (my reading was <5.7) on the scale, I would have to say that something is wrong there.
 
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MNK99

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#28
same rxn to 4andro well actually some different symptoms Walker had. BUT like Ihatefin and unlike Walker, I took 4-andro, but my FIN Syndrome was due to Finasteride.
ANYWAYS I liked 4andro as much as Randro, if not more, because it improved my mood a lot while Randro kind of agitated me, made me really aggressive. YES, great strength gains.But I had better gains on both, and actually Randro was so estrogen crushing that I could not actually take it on it's own. Both helped make me a bit tired (quite tired actually) and pack on more lean mass than ever. They were good but also stressful. I did 2 long cycles last year and a bit of "1-3 day cycles". Ran out, didn't buy again, tho very much liked it. It's hard to get here, and expensive, and my mini cycles while they sometimes gave me gains, it just seems like the first long cycles or (dif cycles most ppl did), were responsible for most the gains. Plus, I'd rather not take anything at all long long run if possible. But you gotta do what you gotta do. id draw a one word symbol if i could.

Anyways, I really really think that I needed those (or the compounds at least if I could not obtain the IML ones), and the PCT kingsblood really helped too.
Based on Advice from Ihatefin and also Walker and his log. Also then later more PCT/TCM herbs (post cycle therapy/ traditional chinese medicine herbs). TMO herbs.

They helped a ton. Perhaps most importantly, got me back to the gym quite fast and hence, helped kickstart the whole "routine" aspect of life again. thanks god.
Responed quite well, probably thanks to being soon after fast (and refeeding along the way or done refeeding perhaps). Ru was done before this, but i do not want to sidetrack the conversation. I'd estimate 20-40% of recovery from there (and diet and exercise and carb backloading and slow oxi diet and fasted training etc 50 w/that).

--cold showers, nofap, sun etc also good. positive behavior and outlook, pushing thru, being the best you can be. never looking back.
--Potentially K+ Randro to make gains '"stick". or some electrolyte protocol (all. most don't do this anymore. TEI can be done but not with this. seperately).


NOTE: I did something most similar to Ihatefin and a couple other guys. Neither of us did Total Male optimization/ cd's. However, both can give great results. Easiest to stick to something clear and concise. if on the TMO plan, that's the key thing. Doing things in order etc, not my order. Just remembered this thread was for TMO and Var in R-A's place. So hopefully this is clear. Also low e for all three of us basically, some or a lot of crushed estrogen/ low estradiol. keep in mind blood tests, only help so much. basically not at all tho nice to see better later. but why obsess or overburden self. it's just annoying/ troublesome for many to get all those tests too.
 
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K8668B

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Dec 22, 2017
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#29
4-Andro worked well for me as I had low estrogen, I believe. Or at least bio-unavailable estrogen. PFS for me mimicked low estrogen horribly. Which is understandable given that Saw Palmetto inhibits aromatase as well as 5AR. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've had copper toxicity issues for a while, even prior to PFS. Always had lower estrogen, and responded well to pro-estrogenic things. I was more of a high DHT/low E type individual. So that's why I believe it helped me so much.
Me too! My estradiol was only 12 PG/ml on my last bloodwork, while my total test was 416. But has been as high as 600s. But highish progesterone too.
 

MNK99

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#30
yes mine was 37 or 27, I think Walkers was <5.7 ish, K8868b's low as he says, and Ihatefin's probably low estradiol as well.

PFS wise probably Randro more important. Lowering my rage, 4andro pretty important too, which Randro increased. Basically worsened stress tolerance for a bit, but I was pretty good but literally had to workout 5am or 11pm to avoid ppl if i could and this was hard considering i was using basically a suburban gym (far away, not really those hours). now on own, I still workout crazy hrs but if ppl are there it's fine bc they're usually cute girls. And I'm less deranged.
 
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Trump_1776

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#31
What about trib vs r andro? Gnomsayin
 

Boris

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#32
Negative, my "PFS" was induced by Saw Palmetto extract. Symptoms included, but not limited to: Dry skin, dry lips, dehydration, loss of libido, good morning wood no wood when its time for sex (originally I had no morning wood at all, but this slowly returned as I recovered), loss of wood while having sex, loss of sensitivity, dry gland (penis), white gland, loss of girth, irritability, mood swings, dht rage (aggression you take out on others), dull orgasm, hesitation just before urinating, night sweats, loss of appetite, constant fatigue, lethargy, constipation (due to dehydration), diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming), obsessive thoughts.....

Those are just the sides I experienced related to low estrogen, but it was almost every known low estrogen side effect in the book. I would agree with your comment on the blood test, but when your estradiol is so low that it's not readable (my reading was <5.7) on the scale, I would have to say that something is wrong there.
Looking back which do you think was more effective, R andro or 4 Andro?
 

Walker

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#33
Looking back which do you think was more effective, R andro or 4 Andro?
I noticed a lot my first cycle of R Andro for sure, but I was really bad off. The most noticeable improvement I made was after the 4 Andro and R Andro combo run (cycles 3 and 4 if I remember correctly) without a doubt. First time big libido came back over the course of days at a time.
 

Boris

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#34
I noticed a lot my first cycle of R Andro for sure, but I was really bad off. The most noticeable improvement I made was after the 4 Andro and R Andro combo run (cycles 3 and 4 if I remember correctly) without a doubt. First time big libido came back over the course of days at a time.
Yeah, I can see that making sense since you get both DHT and estrogen at the same time basically. Were you taking standard doses for both as well?
 

Walker

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#35
Yeah, I can see that making sense since you get both DHT and estrogen at the same time basically. Were you taking standard doses for both as well?
For the most part, 400 mg R Andro and 200 mg 4 Andro daily.
 
Nov 28, 2017
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#36
For the most part, 400 mg R Andro and 200 mg 4 Andro daily.
I just finished a one month cycle of Androhard (r-andro + epiandro) and am feeling really strange. It seemed to help my anxiety and libido, but now I have worse depersonalization/derealization. I can't really explain but my head feels like it is in multiple places at once. Its a very disconcerting feeling, which began happening a few weeks into the cycle. I made it 4 weeks but eventually had to stop because it was so bad. Now I am 5 days off, and it is still largely there. I am really shook up by it because it is super uncomfortable and I have no clue what to do about it except give it time.

I also don't know that, even if this weird head shit does go away (lord willing), I will be able to continue cycling if this is going to happen every time.
 

Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#37
I just finished a one month cycle of Androhard (r-andro + epiandro) and am feeling really strange. It seemed to help my anxiety and libido, but now I have worse depersonalization/derealization. I can't really explain but my head feels like it is in multiple places at once. Its a very disconcerting feeling, which began happening a few weeks into the cycle. I made it 4 weeks but eventually had to stop because it was so bad. Now I am 5 days off, and it is still largely there. I am really shook up by it because it is super uncomfortable and I have no clue what to do about it except give it time.

I also don't know that, even if this weird head shit does go away (lord willing), I will be able to continue cycling if this is going to happen every time.

Did you do progesterone cycles before?

R andro closes 5ar which increases aldosterone this retains sodium and flushes potassium, dopamine to noradrenaline conversion stops and you get too much dopamine.

When potassium goes back up, it will pass.

I used to get derilium on l dopa pills bad. I always had high dopamine.


question is , did you run andro before, or may be progesterone , so may be you recovered your glutamate firing, and dopamine was already good.
 
Feb 16, 2019
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#38
4-Andro worked well for me as I had low estrogen, I believe. Or at least bio-unavailable estrogen. PFS for me mimicked low estrogen horribly. Which is understandable given that Saw Palmetto inhibits aromatase as well as 5AR. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've had copper toxicity issues for a while, even prior to PFS. Always had lower estrogen, and responded well to pro-estrogenic things. I was more of a high DHT/low E type individual. So that's why I believe it helped me so much.
Hi Walker, how is your hair after being on more estrogen foods? Do you see better hair growth/thickness?
 

Walker

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#39
Hi Walker, how is your hair after being on more estrogen foods? Do you see better hair growth/thickness?
I don’t know, to be honest with you. I don’t suffer from any sort of hair loss naturally, so I would say it’s as good as ever? I will say that I noticed newer hairs on my hairline after TEI, but again, I was never receding or anything. Hair loss doesn’t run in either side of my family.
 

slader1

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Nov 17, 2019
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#40
Did you do progesterone cycles before?

R andro closes 5ar which increases aldosterone this retains sodium and flushes potassium, dopamine to noradrenaline conversion stops and you get too much dopamine.

When potassium goes back up, it will pass.

I used to get derilium on l dopa pills bad. I always had high dopamine.


question is , did you run andro before, or may be progesterone , so may be you recovered your glutamate firing, and dopamine was already good.
Sorry but I am just so confused by your advice. Why do you think R-andro closes 5-ar? I was taking it to upregulate 5-ar because I think PFS = low-5ar.

No I did not do any progesterone cycles, I never heard about people doing that.

Anyways do you think eating more potassium will help me? I am still feeling so bad.