Three Herbs Protected Against 5mg Finasteride (Study)

Boris

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#1
Came across this interesting study where it showed the finasteride administration caused apoptosis of testis and prostate tissue (from ROS). A combination of these there herbs prevented/reversed finasteride negative effects.

The study is long, but took out some highlights. I would suggest reading through the entire thing though some interesting stuff.

The DA-9401 is a herbal mixture which contains Morinda officinalis, Allium cepa and Cuscuta chinensi. Already research two of the herbs and they are easily available, the third herb (allium cepa) is just an onion, so literally onion extract/powder would do. And take 3 all three together, would be interesting to see if anything happens. I mean it had a protective and reversable effect on 5mg of finasteride which isn't a tiny dose.

Protective effect of DA-9401 in finasteride-induced apoptosis in rat testis: inositol requiring kinase 1 and c-Jun N-terminal kinase pathway

DA-9401 is a novel compound that is a mixture of extracts of three medicinal plants: Morinda officinalis, Allium cepa and Cuscuta chinensis. DA-9401 acts as an antioxidant and is under development for the treatment of male subfertility. However, no data are available on the effects of DA-9401 on ROS-based finasteride-related infertility. In this study, we evaluated the pathophysiology, efficacy and safety of DA-9401 in a Sprague Dawley (SD) rat model of finasteride-induced infertility.

Finasteride may also alter sperm motility and function of sex glands, including changes in fructose, vitamins and enzymes content. 5α-reductase inhibition might have caused an increased sensitivity of Leydig cell to luteinizing harmone (LH) in adulthood. Therefore, finasteride could interfere with spermatogenesis by affecting hypothalamic–pituitary–testicular axis.

Accumulation of free radicals coupled with an increase in oxidative stress has been implicated in the pathogenesis of several disease states. Sperm damage occurs when oxidative stress overcomes natural antioxidant defenses.7 Oxidative stress is a crucial regulator of endoplasmic reticulum (ER) function and activation of the unfolded protein response (UPR) in disease conditions, as ER stress and increased oxidative stress production occur concurrently.8 Reactive oxygen species (ROS)-linked ER stress has been associated with phosphorylated inositol requiring kinase 1 (p-IRE1) and phosphorylated c-Jun-N-terminal kinase (p-JNK) signaling transduction.9,10

Regarding the relationship between finasteride and reproductive organs, evidences linking finasteride with apoptosis in prostate cells have been published.34 In contrast to these results, we found apoptosis markers procaspase-3 and its active form cleaved caspase-3 in the F group, showing that finasteride may cause apoptosis in testicular tissue.

In conclusion, we are the first to report that finasteride given for 90 days may cause infertility due to disrupted seminiferous tubules. TUNEL analysis revealed that apoptosis in testicular tissue by ROS-mediated activation of GRP-78, p-IRE1, p-JNK, procaspase-3 and cleaved caspase-3 path-ways was recovered by administration of DA-9401.

**Now I want to add is finasteride triggering apoptosis of testis and prostate cells because the HPTA system literally cannot handle the hormone induced change? Also, a couple years back after coming off fin with PFS, my LH barely registered on the scale despite having high test.
 
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Helen

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#2
@Boris and @MCurtone lets explore this.

I found this great paper on affects of different hormones on LH sensitivity. Error - Cookies Turned Off


Notice, estrogen increases LH sensitivity like crazy. but impairs steroid synthesis.

Clomid kills LH sensitivity.


We need to figure out, if we assume that LH sensivity is too much, what effects would that have and why would that cause problems.


it could inhibits hormones that lead to LH release, like noradrenaline may be glutamate etc))



Also as another variant, LH could be sensitive because you cant even secrete it.
 
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Continuous Heal

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#4
**Now I want to add is finasteride triggering apoptosis of testis and prostate cells because the HPTA system literally cannot handle the hormone induced change? Also, a couple years back after coming off fin with PFS, my LH barely registered on the scale despite having high test.
When I was still using the drug and had my "crash" it began with an ache in the left testicle that started one weekend and didn't stop for a year. I also had an ache/tightness in the prostate during this same time. Neither really stopped until I stopped using fin. My bloods showed very low LH ever since. (Haven't had tested in a couple of years.)
 

MCurtone

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#5
When I was still using the drug and had my "crash" it began with an ache in the left testicle that started one weekend and didn't stop for a year. I also had an ache/tightness in the prostate during this same time. Neither really stopped until I stopped using fin. My bloods showed very low LH ever since. (Haven't had tested in a couple of years.)
I never had testicular pain, but I would very often feel vibrations in my gouche/prostate area. Its so weird to describe, like my prostate would be vibrating furiously for half a second, stop and do it again every few seconds. I haven't had that happen in a long time but happened while on fin. I don't remember it happening during pfs..maybe a couple times.

I had it before in highschool too though, seldom.
 

Boris

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#6
When I was still using the drug and had my "crash" it began with an ache in the left testicle that started one weekend and didn't stop for a year. I also had an ache/tightness in the prostate during this same time. Neither really stopped until I stopped using fin. My bloods showed very low LH ever since. (Haven't had tested in a couple of years.)
Yeah my testicles really ached while on. My LH was super low despite having high test. LH sensitivity is also important. This study shows that fin increases LH sensitivity probably from fin causing an estrogen rise in the body which would suppress HPTA/LH and then body adjusts and makes it more sensitive to compensate. Now I wonder if the LH sensitivity remains after ceasing fin or not. HCG is not the solution since you boost LH and this increases the entire axis including estrogen. So when you stop estrogen is high again and keeps the axis shutdown. I think possibly looking at a combo would be to stimulate LH naturally whole blocking estrogen. This is why sustain alpha may be useful for this case. Onion (used in the study) is well known to boost LH but I'm not sure if it interacts with estrogen as well.

There are a few different things we are looking at. Maybe thinking sustain alpha and endoamp combo for LH.
 

raven

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Oct 22, 2017
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#7
@Boris and @MCurtone lets explore this.

I found this great paper on affects of different hormones on LH sensitivity. Error - Cookies Turned Off


Notice, estrogen increases LH sensitivity like crazy. but impairs steroid synthesis.

Clomid kills LH sensitivity.


We need to figure out, if we assume that LH sensivity is too much, what effects would that have and why would that cause problems.


it could inhibits hormones that lead to LH release, like noradrenaline may be glutamate etc))



Also as another variant, LH could be sensitive because you cant even secrete it.
There was a study showing that Estrogen completely reversed seemingly permanent sexual dysfunction in rats who'd been given SSRIs
 

Helen

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#8
@Boris Block aromatase and take HCG))

all other stuff is guessing. plus anything that increases LH increases estrogen)

as was writtten in the study above, estrogen makes LH more sensitive but kills steroidgenesys maximum. potential.

HCG kills LH sensitivity. SO HCG and blocking aromatase, will downregulate sensitivity a lot.. And after you quit HCG. you wont have estrogen


sustain alpha is resveratrol, resveratrol has many differnt actions. and this is far from clean experiment. resveratrol lowers AR for instance. and does act like estrogen also.


If you want to downregulate LH sensitivity, there is nothing better than HCG with aromatase inhibitor. That is direct downregulation))
 
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Boris

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#9
@Boris Block aromatase and take HCG))

all other stuff is guessing. plus anything that increases LH increases estrogen)

as was writtten in the study above, estrogen makes LH more sensitive but kills steroidgenesys maximum. potential.

HCG kills LH sensitivity. SO HCG and blocking aromatase, will downregulate sensitivity a lot.. And after you quit HCG. you wont have estrogen


sustain alpha is resveratrol, resveratrol has many differnt actions. and this is far from clean experiment. resveratrol lowers AR for instance. and does act like estrogen also.


If you want to downregulate LH sensitivity, there is nothing better than HCG with aromatase inhibitor. That is direct downregulation))
I think @MCurtone did a cycle of clomid a while back not sure what he stacked it with and he was cured for a while. I'm not saying clomid is good or the answer but it also somewhat similar in that regard by blocking estrogen to stimulate LH, but again estrogen is going to increase if you don't use a aromatase inhibitor so once clomid wears off your estrogen is going to be high and you are back to square one again. Maybe that is why he only felt cured for a short time period until estrogen shut down HPTA again.

But yeah HCG + aromatase inhibitor or maybe even clomid + aromatase inhibitor.

Personally I lean more towards the natural route as of now like sustain alpha and endoamp (maybe even with toco 8). Since those were originally part of the original test recovery stack from PP you made the original androhard. CD used that stack after each R andro cycle (sustain alpha, endoamp, toco 8 which also benefit LH)
 
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hairsuit

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#10
I think @MCurtone did a cycle of clomid a while back not sure what he stacked it with and he was cured for a while. I'm not saying clomid is good or the answer but it also somewhat similar in that regard by blocking estrogen to stimulate LH, but again estrogen is going to increase if you don't use a aromatase inhibitor so once clomid wears off your estrogen is going to be high and you are back to square one again. Maybe that is why he only felt cured for a short time period until estrogen shut down HPTA again.

But yeah HCG + aromatase inhibitor or maybe even clomid + aromatase inhibitor.

Personally I lean more towards the natural route as of now like sustain alpha and endoamp (maybe even with toco 8). Since those were originally part of the original test recovery stack from PP you made the original androhard. CD used that stack after each R andro cycle (sustain alpha, endoamp, toco 8 which also benefit LH)
Interesting. My hormone doc had prescribed me Clomid a couple months ago because my test and LH was low. I never took it.
 

Boris

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#11
Interesting. My hormone doc had prescribed me Clomid a couple months ago because my test and LH was low. I never took it.
Clomid could possibly help some people intermittently but you are stick stuck with high estrogen since it is being blocked and it basically seems like a bandaid. Clomid + aromatase inhibitor or HCG + aromatase inhibitor would be interesting....
 

MCurtone

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#12
Yes. I did a clomid only cycle for 4 weeks and when I came off it I felt really good and cured in a way, but didn't last.

Why it didn't last, I do not remember. I know I immediately went into another testosterone propionate cycle like an idiot and felt worse after the 2nd PCT but this time I did clomid + nolvadex which is a big no-no.

I wonder how this would work as well with an anti aromatase, or even Aromasin...

Or maybe even stronger, Clomid, Anti Aromatise AND Dostinex to control prolactin and let the steroid pathway supercharge.
 
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Boris

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#13
Yes. I did a clomid only cycle for 4 weeks and when I came off it I felt really good and cured in a way, but didn't last.

Why it didn't last, I do not remember. I know I immediately went into another testosterone propionate cycle like an idiot and felt worse after the 2nd PCT but this time I did clomid + nolvadex which is a big no-no.

I wonder how this would work as well with an anti aromatase, or even Aromasin...

Or maybe even stronger, Clomid, Anti Aromatise AND Dostinex to control prolactin and let the steroid pathway supercharge.
Yeah that is what we are speculating that when you came off, clomid slowly left your system and boom left with high estrogen which stopped your axis from starting up again leaving you to feel worse. Would be interesting to see clomid + anti aromatase to keep estrogen low which should allow axis to start up
 
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Minime

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For those with high estrogen who have also tried RU, did RU bring your estrogen levels back to normal? I had really high estrogen pre-RU, bi

Just curious if this happens with everyone who uses RU.
 

Trump_1776

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#16
So we're back to Clomid aye?
Man.
 

MCurtone

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#17
@MCurtone you did not feel better while on Clomid , right? you felt better when you came off.
Yes I felt pretty bad ON clomid but very horny, and then when I came off, within a few days or a week I started feeling cured in a way.

This was not the case when the clomid + nolvadex cycle though.
 

Boris

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Im thinking of trying natural route first for LH. The TR stack that was previously made by PP and used by CD for his recovery. Basically focuses on all LH aspects while increasing LH and lower estrogen. Not to mention they have anti viral and immune benefiting properties as well. Already have endoamp so may give that a try first before trying anything else.

Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS)
 

Boris

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#19
Yes I felt pretty bad ON clomid but very horny, and then when I came off, within a few days or a week I started feeling cured in a way.

This was not the case when the clomid + nolvadex cycle though.
Yeah nolvadex upregulates progesterone receptor