Something really bad happened! Need help... Anyone, please! I'm on my last rope.

MCurtone

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Apr 7, 2019
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#81
exactly what I am saying B12 is totally not working. and high like in chronic fatique and glutathione deficiency. B12 is recycled by glutahtione, so if there are no folates and folate cycle you get screwed and your folate cycle does not work , b12 is high


Search for PFS bloods thread on this forum. It shows folate deficiency in 100% PFS casse which were tested, they all had IDENTICAL tests.
This is true. in 2017/2018 when my CFS was really bad, I had high reading on b12. People say it's SIBO, but it makes sense combined with this. Going raw carnivore has helped this tremendously.
 
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slader1

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Nov 17, 2019
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#83
This is true. in 2017/2018 when my CFS was really bad, I had high reading on b12. People say it's SIBO, but it makes sense combined with this. Going raw carnivore has helped this tremendously.
I had bloods done a couple months ago and my b-12 was in the middle. Plus, I think helen was referring to folate levels, not b-12.
 

slader1

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Nov 17, 2019
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#84
Is this why a member of current forum is free of all FIN symptoms by going back on DUTASTERIDE?

read Jack17 thread. He is totally cured by going back on dutasteride but small dosage.

He is high DHT case, slow metabolism.



Thyroid increases ESTROGEN, since when metabolism goes up))) SHBG GOES UP)))) since DHT IS LOW

This is why SHBG goes up on thyroid hormone.

and test mostly converts into estrogen))


Allopregnenolone and GABA increase calcium in the cell, and this kills estrogen.

GABA receptor is overexpressed in PFS in some cases , then 3 alpha HSD is closed not 5AR

and this is why some people have high DHT in PFS and low 3 adiol and low allopregnenolone


allopregnenolone is made with 3 alpha HSD))



this is why GHB helps , since GHB is GABA< so it downregulates GABA receptor and upregulates glutamate.( so you dont have to use DHEA which is NDMA receptor positive modulator, )) and gaba A antagonist.) and this then allows 3alpha HSD to go up, and this then lowers DHT levels. and speeds up metabolism and DHT converts into 3 adiol more.( which is gaba agonist same as allopregnenolone)



But we have more than one case in PFS.


this is why it is good to have your hormones tested and see what case you are , and hairtest also


Since we have low and high DHT cases

r andro will upregulate 5AR. since r andro will downregulate AR density in DHT sensitive tissues. and upon withdrawal from r andro you get higher 5AR action, and higher 5ahdp and thus allopregnenolone


but while you are on r andro, your 5AR will be SHUT DOWN, especially if you are a case with overexpressed DHT receptors.

and this then will cause even lower 5AR and allopregnenolone for a while. this is what you are experiencing


this is why it takes 2-3 weeks for 5AR to go back up. but it should be higher than before.
I am not following you on a lot of what you wrote here.

For example, thyroid increasing estrogen? I don't think that's true at all. I have never felt estrogenic on thyroid, in fact I have problems with my estrogen becoming too low on thyroid. I feel decent on thyroid but I end up feeling tired and joints hurting and other low E2 symptoms. I think a more likely, straightfoward explanation is that thyroid upregulates 5-ar, which is shown in a few studies. Some hyperthyroid individuals have huge DHT numbers.

I do see these other few pfs guys with high DHT, which is strange but perhaps their bodies reacted to finasteride by upregulating 5-ar. This explains why taking a small dose of a 5-ar inhibitor helped, bringing their hormones back into balance.

Anyways, I don't understand why you think r-andro SHUTS DOWN 5-ar. What are you basing that on? That runs contrary to all the guys using it on swole source who have felt immediately improved while using it, and improved right when they get off it. There is no response time for them as they "wait for the 5-ar to upregulate". They just come off it feeling better.

Also, if it were true that my 5-ar were now closed, then I should feel as if I have both low DHT and low ALLO. But, I actually feel physically improved but mentally much worse. My anxiety is better, my strength and energy are good, but I have the worst brainfog I have ever experienced. Could it somehow be that my DHT increased but my ALLO decreased?
 
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slader1

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2019
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#85
This is true. in 2017/2018 when my CFS was really bad, I had high reading on b12. People say it's SIBO, but it makes sense combined with this. Going raw carnivore has helped this tremendously.
Could you please elaborate on your raw carnivore diet? Do you eat raw, uncooked meats from grocery stores? Or do you have to find a special source of meat you trust?
 

slader1

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2019
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#86
Sounds like R-Andro had a neurological effect on you, especially w/ suicidal ideations. It will wear off, but give it time. Whatever you do, do not listen to that voice in your head. Your system clearly needs to recalibrate. I second the hair-test idea. Get one via evenbetternow.com.
Boy did it ever have a neurological affect on me. And I thought my brain dog was horrible before the Andro! This is somehow even worse!

I have zero ability to concentrate, I am not inside my own body (3rd person), I can barely think, constant headaches and dizziness, etc. Christ is this awful!

It's been 3 weeks now since the end of the andro cycle and I maybe feel *a bit* better. How much longer do these things take to re-calibrate? Weeks? Months? Years?

I may have to see a neurologist and get put on something to increase allopregnenlone or something, I really can't take this too much longer. My grandmother offerred to pay for me to see the best neuro specialist at UCLA medical.
 
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5 alpha

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Oct 3, 2017
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#87
I am not following you on a lot of what you wrote here.

For example, thyroid increasing estrogen? I don't think that's true at all. I have never felt estrogenic on thyroid, in fact I have problems with my estrogen becoming too low on thyroid. I feel decent on thyroid but I end up feeling tired and joints hurting and other low E2 symptoms. I think a more likely, straightfoward explanation is that thyroid upregulates 5-ar, which is shown in a few studies. Some hyperthyroid individuals have huge DHT numbers.

I do see these other few pfs guys with high DHT, which is strange but perhaps their bodies reacted to finasteride by upregulating 5-ar. This explains why taking a small dose of a 5-ar inhibitor helped, bringing their hormones back into balance.

Anyways, I don't understand why you think r-andro SHUTS DOWN 5-ar. What are you basing that on? That runs contrary to all the guys using it on swole source who have felt immediately improved while using it, and improved right when they get off it. There is no response time for them as they "wait for the 5-ar to upregulate". They just come off it feeling better.

Also, if it were true that my 5-ar were now closed, then I should feel as if I have both low DHT and low ALLO. But, I actually feel physically improved but mentally much worse. My anxiety is better, my strength and energy are good, but I have the worst brainfog I have ever experienced. Could it somehow be that my DHT increased but my ALLO decreased?
You could test your DHT increased Allo decreased theory by taking 5a-DHP and seeing what happens. But I personally think you should not take anything for a little while and wait until you feel better mentally. If you don’t feel better or at least see slow improvements in a reasonable amount of time maybe try the 5a-DHP.

Only other thought I have is that I don’t think this is as easy or straight forward as you think with the 5AR. I would take what Helen is saying seriously with the connections he’s making. It’s complicated but I’m open to it because PFS is complicated. I mean think about it you increase DHT get better and worse at the same time. That’s complicated and obviously involves more than simply low vs high 5ar
 
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slader1

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Nov 17, 2019
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#88
You could test your DHT increased Allo decreased theory by taking 5a-DHP and seeing what happens. But I personally think you should not take anything for a little while and wait until you feel better mentally. If you don’t feel better or at least see slow improvements in a reasonable amount of time maybe try the 5a-DHP.

Only other thought I have is that I don’t think this is as easy or straight forward as you think with the 5AR. I would take what Helen is saying seriously with the connections he’s making. It’s complicated but I’m open to it because PFS is complicated. I mean think about it you increase DHT get better and worse at the same time. That’s complicated and obviously involves more than simply low vs high 5ar
Of course I am taking Helen seriously, how could I not in my condition? I am dying here.

It is just that sometimes the things he writes are confusing or seem even convoluted. For example when he said thyroid increases estrogen - I have never heard that written anywhere ever before, and I have read a lot about thyroid. That is the first time I have ever heard that it is estrogenic. It would also be great if he could take some care in explaining things to people who don't understand mineral interactions/ biochemistry like he does. I am trying to learn more about this stuff but it is very hard with my brain feeling like its been through a blender. I still don't get his recommendation of potassium earlier in this thread. I tried some potassium caps and they made my muscles feel more relaxed, but didnt do much for my head.

Also I tend to go by Occam's Razer - the simplest, most straightfoward explanation is usually correct. I know that PFS is complex but I haven't seen a better explanation than systemic 5-ar inhibition. This is the approach CDnut's uses and his system has lead to many recoveries. I might spend the next year trying that, if I can pull my mind together.
 
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Kjbigman

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May 25, 2019
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#89
Boy did it ever have a neurological affect on me. And I thought my brain dog was horrible before the Andro! This is somehow even worse!

I have zero ability to concentrate, I am not inside my own body (3rd person), I can barely think, constant headaches and dizziness, etc. Christ is this awful!

It's been 3 weeks now since the end of the andro cycle and I maybe feel *a bit* better. How much longer do these things take to re-calibrate? Weeks? Months? Years?

I may have to see a neurologist and get put on something to increase allopregnenlone or something, I really can't take this too much longer. My grandmother offerred to pay for me to see the best neuro specialist at UCLA medical.
dude I don't know. Isn't R-Andro a GABA-agonist? Just a brief search and I see it is related to DHEA? DHEA can inhibit G6PD......which is an enzyme that gets super upregulated while on Fin, therefore I'm guessing can be affected once off fin. DHEA would inhibit NADPH to some extent. But I'm very unfamiliar with its effects. However, your brain fog sounds exactly like what I was experiencing on 1.25mg fin, when I was on zero NADPH. Closest thing to feeling death I have ever experienced, it was terrifying and surreal so I feel you man. You'll pull through it. Just get off whatever is causing it and recalibrate.
 

opiath

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Oct 18, 2017
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#90
It is just that sometimes the things he writes are confusing or seem even convoluted. For example when he said thyroid increases estrogen - I have never heard that written anywhere ever before, and I have read a lot about thyroid. That is the first time I have ever heard that it is estrogenic
What about thyroid increasing estrogen is so hard to understand man?
More thyroid activity = more sugar oxidation.
More sugar oxidation = more CO2 production.
More CO2 production = more need for ventilation.
More need for ventilation = more need for adrenaline.
Adrenaline is fucking expensive to make. It needs things like tyrosine, BH4 (folate + NADPH) and SAMe (methylation + methionine + magnesium).
So instead of making tons of adrenaline the brain just decides to inhibit the enzyme that breaks it down and to also slow down the thyroid to balance things out.
Both things are achieved by raising estrogen.
Estrogen inhibits MAO (which breaks down adrenaline), increases thyroxine-binding globulin (which slows down thyroid) and increases tyrosinase (which oxidises tyrosine so less of it is available for thyroid production and this makes your skin darker).
 

Ingeno

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May 18, 2018
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#91
@slader1 So in PFS AR is upregulated in one tissues, and downregulated in other tissues.

this is why it is so screwed up IMO.

since Testosterone ARs are probably fucked, and DHT are probably high.

DHT inhibits LH, so you get low testosteone, with already weak receptors.

double whammy.
It almost sounds like this screwed up state is only reversible with artificial drugs/medicine. Minerals/foods would take years to fix it, if even possible at all?
 

Kjbigman

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May 25, 2019
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#92
What about thyroid increasing estrogen is so hard to understand man?
More thyroid activity = more sugar oxidation.
More sugar oxidation = more CO2 production.
More CO2 production = more need for ventilation.
More need for ventilation = more need for adrenaline.
Adrenaline is fucking expensive to make. It needs things like tyrosine, BH4 (folate + NADPH) and SAMe (methylation + methionine + magnesium).
So instead of making tons of adrenaline the brain just decides to inhibit the enzyme that breaks it down and to also slow down the thyroid to balance things out.
Both things are achieved by raising estrogen.
Estrogen inhibits MAO (which breaks down adrenaline), increases thyroxine-binding globulin (which slows down thyroid) and increases tyrosinase (which oxidises tyrosine so less of it is available for thyroid production and this makes your skin darker).
damn this is crazy shit
 

Kjbigman

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May 25, 2019
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#93
It almost sounds like this screwed up state is only reversible with artificial drugs/medicine. Minerals/foods would take years to fix it, if even possible at all?
I hope this isn't the case. I honestly don't think it is. We gotta have patience and apply the first principle and only principle of medicine that makes sense: "First do no harm." Sometimes these experimental protocols might do more harm then good.
 

Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#94
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Helen

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#95
@slader1 This is why hyperthyrodism is even more stressful than hypothyrodism

hyperthyrodism will lift up all your stress systems. like cortisol andrenalin, etc.


this is why the older people get the slower their metabolism gets, and if they lift it , they simply live SHORTER))


it is a balance between oxidation and antioxidation, if the body can't provide proper anitoxidation, the metabolism goes lower lower lower lower.


If estrogen is high because of sluggish liver, it will slow down metabolism. This is not the same as being in fast metabolism and having high estrogen.

High estrogen is needed in fast metabolism, and is not needed in slow metabolism.


Think of estrogen as copper provider. when you need copper it goes up ( taking thyroid) , when you dont need copper it goes down.

Sometimes it gets stuck because of fucked up liver and provides you copper in slow metabolism basiclly making you copper toxic.
 
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Kjbigman

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May 25, 2019
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#97
@slader1 Excess Thyroid Increases Estrogen?

I hope you understand that some people get gyno from T3)) The Effects of Hyperthyroidism on Testosterone Levels

I have no idea what you are reading))


thyroid increases Superoxide PRODUCTION.. body needs SODs to provide protection, of course it will raise estrogen with thyroid to provide copper for the SODs.

If you are low on copper then running thyroid will feel like arthritis.
@slader1 This is why hyperthyrodism is even more stressful than hypothyrodism

hyperthyrodism will lift up all your stress systems. like cortisol andrenalin, etc.


this is why the older people get the slower their metabolism gets, and if they lift it , they simply live SHORTER))


it is a balance between oxidation and antioxidation, if the body can't provide proper anitoxidation, the metabolism goes lower lower lower lower.
so like when ur old u can't get SODS? Cuz if thyroid provides SODS then u get ur antioxidants. I need some extra SODS I think. I feel like I'm oxidizing like crazy over here.

OH yea I have zero copper. Cuz Ceruloplasmin is super low and no urinary copper excretion. so pretty much I have decent thyroid...but no SODS, which means I'm basically screwed. And LOW NADPH means like probably zero protection. Probably on my death bed tbh.
 

Helen

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#98
so like when ur old u can't get SODS? Cuz if thyroid provides SODS then u get ur antioxidants. I need some extra SODS I think. I feel like I'm oxidizing like crazy over here.

OH yea I have zero copper. Cuz Ceruloplasmin is super low and no urinary copper excretion. so pretty much I have decent thyroid...but no SODS, which means I'm basically screwed. And LOW NADPH means like probably zero protection. Probably on my death bed tbh.

why dont you come off fin, and then see where you are ))

may be you get lucky and not get PFS

Otherwise you are going circles

being on fin is not the same as being off fin.
 
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bruschi11

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Oct 3, 2017
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#99
It almost sounds like this screwed up state is only reversible with artificial drugs/medicine. Minerals/foods would take years to fix it, if even possible at all?
Wrong. This can be fixed in months if not weeks there’s no doubt in my mind based on m
my experiences.

Unless you’re a healthy person like Jack17 was w/ just sexual sides, you essentially have zero chance out of this with artificial drugs/medicine. Zero chance.
 

Helen

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Wrong. This can be fixed in months if not weeks there’s no doubt in my mind based on m
my experiences.

Unless you’re a healthy person like Jack17 was w/ just sexual sides, you essentially have zero chance out of this with artificial drugs/medicine. Zero chance.

jack17 had typical PFS symptoms, he was not healthy. gut problems, mentals problems, etc. and sexual problems.
 
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