Sounds like R-Andro had a neurological effect on you, especially w/ suicidal ideations. It will wear off, but give it time. Whatever you do, do not listen to that voice in your head. Your system clearly needs to recalibrate. I second the hair-test idea. Get one via evenbetternow.com.
Something really bad happened! Need help... Anyone, please! I'm on my last rope.
- Thread starter slader1
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I wouldn’t think about 5ar inhibition with pfs. I don’t ever. Think about health and what actually makes people function correctly. And what makes people chronically ill.
Unless it’s strongest 5ar inhibitor like fin, saw, dut- 5ar inhibition is something we shouldn’t worry about much at all.
In regards to question you had about going low carb to starve pathogens- yes it has its time and it’s place. But it’s no long term thing. Maybe 2-3 month low carb diet yearly or so is great. I fast which does the same in 21 days.
Biggest thing with pathogen illnesses beyond nutritional deficiencies they cause is the endotoxin. Pathogens die and form these horrid type corpses the body needs to learn detox in a highly efficiency way. Good carbs like oatmeal, potatoes, rices, sprouted grains- they are very good binders to help grab these toxins and make the body excrete them in stool.
Perfect digestion and transit is most important thing in solving these types of illnesses and good carbs make this system run so much more efficiently than keto. But in some systems keto can really the body get on track.
Unless it’s strongest 5ar inhibitor like fin, saw, dut- 5ar inhibition is something we shouldn’t worry about much at all.
In regards to question you had about going low carb to starve pathogens- yes it has its time and it’s place. But it’s no long term thing. Maybe 2-3 month low carb diet yearly or so is great. I fast which does the same in 21 days.
Biggest thing with pathogen illnesses beyond nutritional deficiencies they cause is the endotoxin. Pathogens die and form these horrid type corpses the body needs to learn detox in a highly efficiency way. Good carbs like oatmeal, potatoes, rices, sprouted grains- they are very good binders to help grab these toxins and make the body excrete them in stool.
Perfect digestion and transit is most important thing in solving these types of illnesses and good carbs make this system run so much more efficiently than keto. But in some systems keto can really the body get on track.
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johnsmith and Bankai900
Exactly this. After I found TMO and ppl healing I never thought again of PFS as something weird/unattainable/uncurable/killed hormonepathways/receptors thing.
Just took these 40 like symptoms, and tried to find the practical solution via medical healthfield to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF them one by one. Possible cause and practical solution. The good thing is, most healthissues stem from the same sources.
I belive tho that fasting is exactly the best way to get rid of those corpses which inflame the shit out of your body. Get into ketosis for 2-3days, then fast, 3/4 days to send the cleaning crew in, refeed properly, create a good gutbiome while focusing on mineral imbalances. Repeat every month. Then 3-4x a year. Then 2x a year for life. I hope I'm not delusional in my approach
Just took these 40 like symptoms, and tried to find the practical solution via medical healthfield to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF them one by one. Possible cause and practical solution. The good thing is, most healthissues stem from the same sources.
I belive tho that fasting is exactly the best way to get rid of those corpses which inflame the shit out of your body. Get into ketosis for 2-3days, then fast, 3/4 days to send the cleaning crew in, refeed properly, create a good gutbiome while focusing on mineral imbalances. Repeat every month. Then 3-4x a year. Then 2x a year for life. I hope I'm not delusional in my approach
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bruschi11 and johnsmith
I'm the other PFS guy who has suspected rice makes me go nuts. (I was on fin longer then most people so the drug probably did things to me that it never had the chance to do to a lot of you guys.) Maybe it wasn't the 5ar inhibition of the rice causing the problems and it was really the starch? For instance, my brainfog seemed to get better after cutting out potatoes and going completely no-starch. Would you agree that part of the benefits that people might experience while going no carb could likely be in part from the elimination of starch?
What's the consensus over here on using things like antibiotics and activated charcoal for the elimination of endotoxins?
What's the consensus over here on using things like antibiotics and activated charcoal for the elimination of endotoxins?
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Lectins(white potatoes) are a fkin nogo if you've leaky gut (which prob EVERYONE has after fincrash). I belive tho if ppl go lowsugar and eat more good fats with every meal, it helps to fix gutlining and insulin resistence. Then fix sibo, then liver. Not saying do keto for life, I'm not even supporting keto that much, but 3months cut shit out to fix body is prob neccessary.
Interested in the activated charc approach too, would be too scared to play with antibiotics tho, rather use fasting and maybe oregano oil/garlic.
Interested in the activated charc approach too, would be too scared to play with antibiotics tho, rather use fasting and maybe oregano oil/garlic.
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johnsmith
I have been Saw P-PFS for 9 years. The first few years I had my hormones tested several times. In my early days I had low T, LH, FSH. Never had low DHT. But without baseline pre PFS labs there is no way to know if my DHT was lower than it was pre PFS and even if it was I don’t think there is much significance to this.
As far as severity of Saw P-PFS VS Fin PFS I don’t think there is an easy answer to this. My gut feeling/opinion is that generally speaking Saw P-PFS Guys have greater chance of recovery compared to Fin-PFS guys. I base my opinion off of what we know about how Saw P works compared to how Fin works and the prognosis of Saw P-PFS Guys. There seems to be a good percentage of recoveries in the much smaller Saw P-PFS guys. My specific case though was extremely severe. Just to give you an idea in my early days my constipation was so bad I sustained a disk injury in my lower back that has since progressed to the extent that I’m disabled. I got absolutely crushed in the sexual sides as well. So my Saw P-PFS case was very bad.
Either way though I think it’s a combination of receptor and enzyme issues combined with digestive issues. With 5AR issues having very little or nothing to do with it. Your response to extra DHT seems too strong. What dose did you run the r-Andro at?
As far as severity of Saw P-PFS VS Fin PFS I don’t think there is an easy answer to this. My gut feeling/opinion is that generally speaking Saw P-PFS Guys have greater chance of recovery compared to Fin-PFS guys. I base my opinion off of what we know about how Saw P works compared to how Fin works and the prognosis of Saw P-PFS Guys. There seems to be a good percentage of recoveries in the much smaller Saw P-PFS guys. My specific case though was extremely severe. Just to give you an idea in my early days my constipation was so bad I sustained a disk injury in my lower back that has since progressed to the extent that I’m disabled. I got absolutely crushed in the sexual sides as well. So my Saw P-PFS case was very bad.
Either way though I think it’s a combination of receptor and enzyme issues combined with digestive issues. With 5AR issues having very little or nothing to do with it. Your response to extra DHT seems too strong. What dose did you run the r-Andro at?
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I've the same XD. I'd rather guess that's liverdamage(which I PERSONALLY belive everyone has aswell). I go out and say it, all of ppl here have liver damage, Insulin resistence and magn deficiency at start.
Prob 3 years of systematic fasting and beets and 2/3 meals with no sugar should give u a brand new liver. Maybe 4-5years if we get wasted from time to time xD. But ye forget the 4week articles bs xD.
Belive tho 21day fasts can maybe fix 50%.
Guess we should give slader his thread back ; p
Prob 3 years of systematic fasting and beets and 2/3 meals with no sugar should give u a brand new liver. Maybe 4-5years if we get wasted from time to time xD. But ye forget the 4week articles bs xD.
Belive tho 21day fasts can maybe fix 50%.
Guess we should give slader his thread back ; p
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johnsmith
I agree. My digestive issues have taken a turn for the worse over the last few months. I need to start focusing on this more. I cheated the last couple of days over the holiday but the last couple of weeks prior to this I switched back over to strict paleo with the only exception white or brown rice. Digestive system has not improved yet but I have lost weight switching back to strict paleo which I’m not a fan of.
Well I have no doubt in my mind that lowerred 5-ar expression is at least one part of pfs. Everytime I've taken a 5-ar reduced steroid I've felt immediate, significant improvement. There were times I've felt cured taking a combination of 5a-dhp, andro, dhea, progesterone, glycine, b3 and thyroid. The reason I believe this works is because 5a-dhp converts to allopregnenlone which studies have shown is very low in fin users. This is the neurosteroid behind the brain-fog/depersonalizaiton issues. There is also the DHT component though, which is responsible for most of the physical sides. So using dhea helps push testosterone, but alone doesn't increase DHT enough because 5-ar remains woefully absent. Thus, taking thyroid hormone, which has been shown to upregulate 5-ar expression considerably, helps to increase both the Test>dht and progesterone>allopregnenlone pathways. The glycine and b3 are also known to increase 5-ar expression, particularly in the brain.
However, 5-ar has more roles aside from making DHT and ALP. In fact, all of its roles are probably not well understood. That is why the best course of action seems to be bringing 5-ar expression back to pre-fin levels. This can be done with androsterone because DHT has been shown to upregulate 5-ar expression. That is confirmed by CDnut's recovery. There also seems to be potential for weightlifting and excercise to slowly, and gradually upregulate 5-ar. The only other option it seems to me is trying to create the healthiest environment possible for the body to mend itself. Two of the biggest stressors preventing the body from functionning correctly are digestive and liver function, so that is why I think guys have had success by pursuing those routes.
Ultimately though I think by fixing gut/liver/renal function, and balancing minerals, what is happenning is the body is upregulating 5-ar. Anything healthy and pro-metabolism seems to boost 5-ar, judging by the research. However this routes seems to be a long and ardous process.
Lately Ive been interested using pharmecuticals like valium, etifoxine or GHB because these are known to increase 5-ar in the brain significantly, boosting ALP.
I may have to do that sooner because my mental state right since taking androsterone is just so screwed.
However, 5-ar has more roles aside from making DHT and ALP. In fact, all of its roles are probably not well understood. That is why the best course of action seems to be bringing 5-ar expression back to pre-fin levels. This can be done with androsterone because DHT has been shown to upregulate 5-ar expression. That is confirmed by CDnut's recovery. There also seems to be potential for weightlifting and excercise to slowly, and gradually upregulate 5-ar. The only other option it seems to me is trying to create the healthiest environment possible for the body to mend itself. Two of the biggest stressors preventing the body from functionning correctly are digestive and liver function, so that is why I think guys have had success by pursuing those routes.
Ultimately though I think by fixing gut/liver/renal function, and balancing minerals, what is happenning is the body is upregulating 5-ar. Anything healthy and pro-metabolism seems to boost 5-ar, judging by the research. However this routes seems to be a long and ardous process.
Lately Ive been interested using pharmecuticals like valium, etifoxine or GHB because these are known to increase 5-ar in the brain significantly, boosting ALP.
I may have to do that sooner because my mental state right since taking androsterone is just so screwed.
Is this why a member of current forum is free of all FIN symptoms by going back on DUTASTERIDE?
read Jack17 thread. He is totally cured by going back on dutasteride but small dosage.
He is high DHT case, slow metabolism.
Thyroid increases ESTROGEN, since when metabolism goes up))) SHBG GOES UP)))) since DHT IS LOW
This is why SHBG goes up on thyroid hormone.
and test mostly converts into estrogen))
Allopregnenolone and GABA increase calcium in the cell, and this kills estrogen.
GABA receptor is overexpressed in PFS in some cases , then 3 alpha HSD is closed not 5AR
and this is why some people have high DHT in PFS and low 3 adiol and low allopregnenolone
allopregnenolone is made with 3 alpha HSD))
this is why GHB helps , since GHB is GABA< so it downregulates GABA receptor and upregulates glutamate.( so you dont have to use DHEA which is NDMA receptor positive modulator, )) and gaba A antagonist.) and this then allows 3alpha HSD to go up, and this then lowers DHT levels. and speeds up metabolism and DHT converts into 3 adiol more.( which is gaba agonist same as allopregnenolone)
But we have more than one case in PFS.
this is why it is good to have your hormones tested and see what case you are , and hairtest also
Since we have low and high DHT cases
r andro will upregulate 5AR. since r andro will downregulate AR density in DHT sensitive tissues. and upon withdrawal from r andro you get higher 5AR action, and higher 5ahdp and thus allopregnenolone
but while you are on r andro, your 5AR will be SHUT DOWN, especially if you are a case with overexpressed DHT receptors.
and this then will cause even lower 5AR and allopregnenolone for a while. this is what you are experiencing
this is why it takes 2-3 weeks for 5AR to go back up. but it should be higher than before.
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johnsmith
@slader1 Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
in medium with high DHT. DHEA is ANTIADNROGEN and blocks androgen receptor.
Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen.
DHEA has been found to directly act on several neurotransmitter receptors, including acting as a positive allosteric modulator of the NMDA receptor, as a negative allosteric modulator of the GABAA receptor, and as an agonist of the σ1 receptor.[28][25]
this is why in PFS body is already using DHEA to block some of the androgens and gaba. this is why we see tons of cases where DHEA is high in PFS
and those cases feel better when they take even more DHEA, since that increases their testosterone, since DHEA is blocking DHT receptors and this allows more test
in medium with high DHT. DHEA is ANTIADNROGEN and blocks androgen receptor.
Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen.
DHEA has been found to directly act on several neurotransmitter receptors, including acting as a positive allosteric modulator of the NMDA receptor, as a negative allosteric modulator of the GABAA receptor, and as an agonist of the σ1 receptor.[28][25]
this is why in PFS body is already using DHEA to block some of the androgens and gaba. this is why we see tons of cases where DHEA is high in PFS
and those cases feel better when they take even more DHEA, since that increases their testosterone, since DHEA is blocking DHT receptors and this allows more test
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johnsmith
@slader1 So in PFS AR is upregulated in one tissues, and downregulated in other tissues.
this is why it is so screwed up IMO.
since Testosterone ARs are probably fucked, and DHT are probably high.
DHT inhibits LH, so you get low testosteone, with already weak receptors.
double whammy.
this is why it is so screwed up IMO.
since Testosterone ARs are probably fucked, and DHT are probably high.
DHT inhibits LH, so you get low testosteone, with already weak receptors.
double whammy.
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johnsmith
so @slader1
1) people with high DHT and slow metabolism in PFS , are those who dont convert DHT into 3 adiol. since 3 adiol is gaba agonist same as allopregnenolone. so these people have problem with gaba glutamate balance. Probably glutamate is low for some reason( LOW GLUTATHIONE) , or gaba is overexpressed.
they crash when they come off the finasteride.
And this is why when this kind of person goes back on dutasteride small dosage. His gaba activation lowers, and DHT drops just a tiny bit, but his allopregnenolone and 3 adiol go down, so there is less calcium in the cell, and metabolism lifts up. Jack17 lost tons of weight on dutasteride. and felt that his metabolism increased
2) people with low DHT. or normal DHT. those probably have problems with either estro or AR receptors. and feel terrible on DHT agonists and good on estrogenic stuff.
When they downregulate their DHT ARs, their 5AR goes up, which then increases allopregnenolone and fixes their anxiety. Usually these people have less problems with libido and erections. and more with anxiety.
1) people with high DHT and slow metabolism in PFS , are those who dont convert DHT into 3 adiol. since 3 adiol is gaba agonist same as allopregnenolone. so these people have problem with gaba glutamate balance. Probably glutamate is low for some reason( LOW GLUTATHIONE) , or gaba is overexpressed.
they crash when they come off the finasteride.
And this is why when this kind of person goes back on dutasteride small dosage. His gaba activation lowers, and DHT drops just a tiny bit, but his allopregnenolone and 3 adiol go down, so there is less calcium in the cell, and metabolism lifts up. Jack17 lost tons of weight on dutasteride. and felt that his metabolism increased
2) people with low DHT. or normal DHT. those probably have problems with either estro or AR receptors. and feel terrible on DHT agonists and good on estrogenic stuff.
When they downregulate their DHT ARs, their 5AR goes up, which then increases allopregnenolone and fixes their anxiety. Usually these people have less problems with libido and erections. and more with anxiety.
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johnsmith
What do you mean you cant convert. If GABA receptor is strong or NDMA is weak., why would the body convert things into gaba agonists. It will avoid this conversion, thus 3 alpha hsd will be closed.
Plus in your case you have hemolytic anemia while on fin. means NADPH is done.
it is not protecting your red blood cells.
and your folate is leaking out of the cell.
so later you will have low glutathione.
and with low glutahtione you will be stuck with hypofunction of NDMA receptor, since NDMA otherwise will damage your brain.
I think this could be a very good explanation of what is going on and why people can't recover.
is it possible to boost glutathione or reduce risk of this brain damage? / is there a safe way to get off this drug without getting PFS?
Also super interesting about the folate, my B12 levels were quite high in the blood on previous labs. my recent full blood panel showed normal RBC but it was swinging wildly for a long time when I was on a higher dose of fin, and I did suspect hemolytic anemia at the time!
Also super interesting about the folate, my B12 levels were quite high in the blood on previous labs. my recent full blood panel showed normal RBC but it was swinging wildly for a long time when I was on a higher dose of fin, and I did suspect hemolytic anemia at the time!
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exactly what I am saying B12 is totally not working. and high like in chronic fatique and glutathione deficiency. B12 is recycled by glutahtione, so if there are no folates and folate cycle you get screwed and your folate cycle does not work , b12 is high
Search for PFS bloods thread on this forum. It shows folate deficiency in 100% PFS casse which were tested, they all had IDENTICAL tests.
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Kjbigman