Shuddering’s Log: Healing from Post-DMSA syndrome (chronic low copper):

opiath

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
89
97
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Bulgaria
#21
I'm toxic in copper and iron and if I chelate them enough I can be cured very quickly.
... I also think I can fix all of this very quickly if I have the right information.
... removing lots of oxidized minerals ... cure me within a couple of weeks?
You need a reality check man.
Those are problems that develop over years and it takes years to fix them as well.
You cant just take chelators constantly and expect for these minerals to teleport out of the body.

All the way from tissues, through bloodstream, through liver, through bile, through ducts, to intestines you need lots of reducing power
to transport small amounts of minerals which react with oxygen.

MT, glutathione, ceruloplasmin are able to bind minerals with amino acids because they are kept charged with NAPDH.
NADPH is a storage molecule for extra electrons (reducing power) the body is able to generate from food.
Without electrons minerals cannot be fixated into proteins.

With enough reducing power the body is perfectly equipped to move copper or iron wherever it wants.
But this process is not instant. It takes a lot of time because you are not able to generate tons of NADPH every day and the
proteins themselves have a limited carrying capacity.

You think you can bypass this process by taking grams of DMSA and ALA??
haha ok. good luck.

I'm almost sure your pains are caused by the stuff you keep taking that you think you need but is actually disrupting your homeostasis.
Copper and iron toxicity are chronic problems with long term effects. They don't cause acute spikes of pain.
Several hundred milligrams of ALA in one evening... what???
If this is not causing you to crash, you don't have a mercury or copper problem.
And if you have mercury or copper problem you are insane for taking these amounts.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#22
Last night, within a couple hours of taking several hundred milligrams ALA with a meal, I got a bunch of improvements, just as I predicted. These improvements have all lasted throughout today and not gone away, as far as I can tell. My temps are way up and my hands and head are warm most of the time (whether due to increased thyroid or cortisol idk). My energy and walking speed are substantially increased. In fact, last night, I was speeding around my room and smiling with giddiness for over an hour straight. I had the energy of a kid again (more energy than I ever did as a kid, actually. I was probably mercury and aluminum poisoned probably from before I could speak, and now I am basically cured of both of them). This morning when I had to leave in a hurry and walk a couple miles on a short schedule, I did so with a very fast walking speed. This effect was only less pronounced later today because I spent hours in pain from my infection and barely got any sleep. There were previous occasions in recent months (all of them occurred after I had lowered my mercury at least substantially) where I had this same childlike energy level, but from becoming toxic in calcium, etc that was lost to me for the time being. It is good to see that that was merely due to being toxic in minerals which can be fixed by chelation, and not from physical obstructions in my blood vessels like too much stearic acid. Some of my emotions (though not all) are increased, and I can get the ASMR shivering sensation again at least a little bit.

My voice has been deeper. My mouth was very strongly watering when I saw food today (I noticed this was absent for weeks or more before today). My body's ability to take gut toxins and send them to the stomach to be neutralized by acid seems to have increased as well, and it caused a slight brief acid reflux style feeling a couple of times (this is often the cause of acid reflux - the body's response to a gut endotoxin/infection problem. Suppressing it is not good). My ability to feel nauseous, get sick, make nasal mucus, seem to have increased as well. I think these are all good things, as counterintuitive as it may seem. My body has been taking great damage during this whole post-DMSA ordeal from vit A, colon inflammation/infection, low antioxidants, but my inflammation response has been suppressed or low this whole time, so the body hasn't been cleaning up waste enough, even if it means I don't look like I'm on the verge of death. Being able to get sick again and have mucus and non-threatening infections clean up this waste is long-overdue, and I have a large backlog of garbage to clean out. I have had a cough/cold for almost a month now continuously, but mucus production increased a bit today it seemed. My gut serotonin production also I think is higher, giving me somewhat loose and watery stools again for the first time in weeks or even months- were it not for the use of mineral oil I would currently be suffering I think from alternating constipation and diarrhea because of my colon being infected by dangerous bacteria, which are the cause of most of my chronic pain.

Very importantly, my breathing rate is way up. It increased a lot again last night and still is very increased compared to yesterday. There were times in these recent months where it was this high or higher (like when I replenished my molybdenum some weeks after my first DMSA round probably depleted it-), before I made myself more toxic again in copper or calcium.

It's possible that the huge increases in bile sounds were temporary (I am still trying to tell if they have continued today or not) occurred only while the ALA was in my bloodstream, from being made temporarily non-toxic in some other metal during the round (you sometimes see this in chelation- the chelator pulls metals that are inhibiting you from the cells and into the blood, and since the problem is when they are in the cells this reactivates blocked enzymes temporarily so you feel better, but then the chelator leaves the body and not enough of the metals it pulled leave with it as opposed to just landing back in cells at random and being redistributed. You need to chelate more afterward to make the effect permanent, to get these excess metals out permanently). It could also be that my levels of other minerals needed for it, at least the ones that are usable right now in the cells, were lowered too much by the ALA. It could also be recently onset manganese toxicity from this week. Bile means you are making NADPH, and this shows yet again that I am correct that my enzymes, including NADPH enymes, are not working because they are blocked by mineral toxicities, not because I am missing any nutrient. This has happened multiple times this fall anyways- first in late october from chelation with more DMSA and ALA in similar doses to this, and then again in mid-late november from more DMSA, and then again in early december from ala and ip-6 chelation. Each time my bile is restored when I chelate copper, and then when I accumulate more copper afterwards it gets shut off again and I have to chelate once again. This is why I can't just eat normally for a few weeks and hope everything will get sorted out. That doesn't happen with these things. The only thing that will ever fix this is chelation.

I certainly won't make the mistake again of letting myself eat high copper foods after a chelation round, because I now know that I am stuck on the upper end of the range for copper levels in my body until my CP comes back, so doing so will only make me toxic again as it has like 3 times now. I wil keep restricting copper from my diet, there is NO WAY I will ever become deficient in copper before I am healed. So don't take copper again.

Now, despite my improvements, which no doubt came from lowering my level of a mineral I was toxic in so that I am no longer toxic in it (I suspect copper, though maybe it was manganese, or maybe I'm still toxic in manganese (or never was at all even with this last week)), my estrogen is still zero. So I am still a sitting duck for these bacterial infections in my colon that are hurting me so much, and I still get hurt by vitamin A, and my functional memory in day to day life is terrible and my emotions and general demeanor are flat. My scalp itch is still incredibly low, and it and these other estrogen dependent things and Nitric oxide as well are all noticeably lower than they were earlier this week, not that they were very high then. This could be from ALA depleting other minerals from active binding sites (I know it does from the use of it in October at these doses, and it took a few days then for things to recover), or from becoming toxic in manganese from food and from taking so much on TEI's advice, or taking in too much iron perhaps. I also keep getting lots of dietary vit C from kiwis, brussel sprouts, etc, so that might be lowering my ceruloplasmin/estrogen as well for the time being even lower. I still am toxic in some mineral that is blocking adrenaline and estrogen, I think. I don't know what it is though. I suspect iron or manganese, and maybe or maybe not calcium.
If I am able to chelate this mineral without depleting myself of the other minerals, and remain below the toxicity threshold for copper during this time, then I think I will be fixed.


I just ate a (non-dairy) probiotic yogurt with 3 acid-producing strains of bacteria to deal with the colon infection. This seems to have worked in the past, although the acid producing bacteria themselves, because of my impaired immunity, can (at least certain strains, which is why I stick to the yogurts with 3 strains now and not the more dedicated colon care probiotics with like 15 strains- those are very very dangerous for me even tho they killed c diff I think). I will try a single capsule of Malic acid as well, since that possibly has been helpful before as well (like the acidity kills the dangerous bacteria), and hopefully can lower my calcium a bit. Am I correct that malate chelates calcium out of the body? I know it does for aluminum, but I didn't have much success with it as far as I could tell for magnesium, when I was toxic in it. If it had chelated magnesium well enough then none of this would have happened, since malate doesn't chelate mercury so I wouldn't have had the redistribution problem back during late summer that forced me to try DMSA. I would have been able to stick to my original plan, which was to lower my mercury with chelators, gold etc enough that my body could start excreting it on its own over time, and just have my body get rid of it over the ensuing months and in finally maybe finishing it off by taking some ALA in larger doses to get the remainder out of the brain. But the magnesium toxicity and my SIBO at the time (I killed this eventually with butter after the first DMSA round fixed my magnesium toxicity which let me eat fat again. This is a different infection from my current one, which I believe is in the colon, not the small intestine) forced my hand, and this much more pleasant timeline did not come to pass.

My terrible pain contineud today, however, and I believe almost all of it to have come from colon bacteria. In the 2 months or so that I have been dealing with the gut infection that I think is c diff, I have repeatedly taken these probiotic yogurts and had it bring this terrible pain under under control, except that the lactic acid from the bacteria hurts me as well (my liver detox is really impaired because of blocked enzymes), so I have to then kill those off as well. Because this is in the small intestine, I have always been able to then kill this off with antibacterial foods, and then I'll have been granted a reprieve from my bacteria-induced body-wide pain. Would probiotic enemas (with just these 3 strains) be a safer route, since they won't cause a painful SIBO that I have to kill off? I am just worried about the possibility that they could then establish themselves in the colon and poison me with lactic acid after killing the c diff, and that it would be more difficult to get rid of this problem in this case because of them being in the colon rather than the small intestine.

Does anyone here know of easy, safe, effective ways to deal with bacterial infections of the colon, such as c diff?
The other way to fix it permanently is to heal myself very soon to resore ceruloplasmin, because that will kill it I'm certain. That is my plan, in fact, I just need to figure out with the help of anyone here how to chelate safely and properly for the final leg, which is what will cure me. I just have to nto dpelete myself of other minerals for this to work.

The acid bacteria from the yogurt are already giving me their particular sensations of pain (different things give different pain sensations, so you can often tell what is causing it once you learn them). I am eating lots of butter with bread now to kill them, and if things work as they have in the past the proiotic bacteria will have killed the active colon bacteria before this has ahappneed, and my pain will have gone away again and I'll have bought myself some time and rest.

Before people tell me that this is something I'm doing that is making myself worse- I already done this before and successfully brought the colon infection under control and then killed the excess acid-producing bacteria that were hurting me as well with stuff like vinegar, carrots, coconut oil, butter. I'm already eating this stuff right now to start immediately killing the acid bacteria that are establishing themselves in my small intestine. This is just the way I've found that tends to work (albeit temporarily) to get my infections and thus my pain under control. I had butter on some wheat bread made with modern wheat but that has no added iron or vitamins, so hopefully the modern wheat in it won't be a problem for me. I think rye bread was a disaster for me earlier this week, as was eating processed meat on Tuesday without being able to see the packaging with the ingredients listed (so it may have had carageenan in it, which I know destroys me once it reaches the colon).

I did full body sunbathing for 20 minutes or so today. That may have helped, but idk. I've taken in tons of phosphorus the last 2 months, and little calcium (And also lowered it with lots of chelators) after poisoning myself with calcium in october. The question of my calcium status is a very important one and one that I probably don't know enough to answer on my own, so any help in figuring it out would be very appreciated!




The key section of this post:
~~~~~~~~~

So where does this leave me now? Last night I made a significant advance with severl hundred milligrams ALA, but my estrogen still remains nonexistent. I guess I was toxic in multiple minerals, and I just removed one (probably copper), so now I am much closer to being fully healed, which will occur as soon as I chelate out the remining mineral toxicity/ies PROVIDED that in doing so I don't chelate too much of other minerals I'm not toxic in.

So I need your help, everyone, in figuring out how to go about this next part, which could be the very last stage to restoring my ceruloplasmin and estrogen, which will fix my infections and let me handle vitmain A again and give me insane energy and quality of life. There are a few questions I need help answering. I am pretty certain that I have just one or two remaining toxicities. I think Iron is probably one (I've eaten/taken a lot, and without ceruloplasmin (which has been my case for over 3 months now) it accumulates very readily), and manganese is possibly another (if I'm toxic in manganese it is recent, it was only in the last 30 days that I took in lots of it). Other possibiltiies but less liekly are molybdenum and selenium. I know selenium crashes temps for some people who take too much though and after chelation last night my temps are very high and excellent, so I doubt I am toxic in selenium (though maybe it was a problem before and ALA fixed it? But then I should not eat much selenium just in case that IS the case. I will just gett thh amount I'd have from meat and fish anwyays, just no eating brazil nuts, etc). And molybdenum I took in a lot of earlier, so I might be too hgh in it, idk. And the possibly there is calcium, I may still be toxic in it, but I've been avoiding it for 2 months while chelating, and one month of heavy manganese. Maybe I still have too much calcium and that's blocking estrogen, but I remember that for 2 weeks after DMSA round 3 in mid-late november I had slight increase in adrenaline and estrogen that then went away, and another slight increase in late december that went away very soon after that. What if Im now actually running low on calcium, and need more? How can I know? It's also possible that I did lower my cells of calcium durign this time in late Novmeber and that improved me then but other things I did after that caused more to be leached from bones and put into cells again. I'm guessing my new hair test when I finally get it will possibly show if that is the case?
I had slight increase in adrenaline potential production earlier this week, before chelation, so maybe that shows I'm not toxic in calcium anymore (but this could be wrong).


Does anyone (@Helen ?) know which minerals when toxic will suppress ceruloplasmin and estrogen to zero? Calcium? Iron? Which ones are notorious / particular for that?

Obviously I need to take in from my diet more of the minerals I am vulnerable to depleting, during the chelation process, but I need to avoid making myself toxic in them, like I've repeatedly done by eating copper. So I know to restrict copper iron manganese and probably molybdenum and calcium from my diet, and to keep getting lots of sodium potassium magnesium zinc chromium boron and probably selenium (just from meat and fish, no supplements for any of these except boron, and even then not much). Actually, I won't make an effort to get more selenium than normal, just rely on the normal intake from foods I normally eat. It's an unnecessary risk. I've eaten LOTS of fish recently anyways, and supplemented with it on and off throughout december.

But the one I'm really wondering about is my calcium staus- I'm not sure what it is anymore after becoming toxic in it but then avoiding it and chelating for months, and if I'm in danger of becoming toxic in molybdenum or not (I ate a lot of it in october and november, and supplemented with it too, but have somewhat avoided it in the last 4 weeks).

It's possible that I'm only toxic now in iron, so eating the other minerals and just taking IP-6 might cure me? Does Ip-6 get iron from the brain? OF course this could also go wrong if I try this and am incorrect, so I'm not just going to jump in and do it.

I am taking no chelators tonight except malic acid (to kill bacteria). Tomorrow I may take some more ALA to see if that increases bile production more . ALA probably gets rid of iron and def depletes manganese so maybe that will fix me. Does ALA get calcium?
But I don't want to take much ALA tomorrow because I might lower my other minerals (At least the deployed minerals for the next several days) too much, like it might have done somewhat today, alongside other improvements from fixing one toxicity.


I may very well still have calcium toxicity as well though, (is that the true common cause of the chronic low ceruloplasmin cases you see on health forums that never get better, and of the vit A toxicity cases (vit A intolerance = low ceruloplasmiin in many or most cases).
It could be that DMSA in mid-late november lowered calcium below toxic brefly but the small amount I got from diet were enough to undo that soon after, so I'd need to chelate calcium to be healed. What compounds are good for this?
I don't want to take DMSA ever again, so that's not an option.

Does anyone have an idea of how I should proceed from here? If you know what minerals tend to cause low ceruloplasmin/estrogen and vitmain A intolerance when you are toxic in them, please share that information, this info alone mgith be all I need to know to figure out the rest. Tomorrow I will take some more ALA and avoid copper, but I don't want to try anything else.

I think I am just toxic in one or two more minerals and once I chelate the excesses of those out I'll be healed if I do it right and replenish other mineral during chelation. I think I have the potential to actually be healed THIS WEEK. Last night's instant results from chelation should show how quickly this can be fixed. I just need help from anyone who knows anything on planning out this last stage so I can do it safely.
.
Chelation from here can and will save me, I just have to be cautious (but not too slow, because every day I unavoidably take in more minerals from food) and not screw it up.
Let's aim for curing this week if we can.
~~~~~~~~~
 
Last edited:

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#23
Update for last 12 hours:
My temps have remained very high, as does my breathing rate. I am not still bursting with energy right now, but I'm still catching up on sleep and went through a lot of endotoxin pain yesterday.
Last night I took a malic acid capsule, and I did feel very weird after in my head, and still do (it has done this whenever I've taken it in the last month). It temporarily increased my bile as expected, but I'm still waiting on the permanent large loud increase (only by fixing remaining toxicity/ies will this be restored, I think. But during the ALA round 2 nights ago my bile was very loud and lasted a while, so maybe I'll get there just by chelating more with ALA.).
I had some beef last night as well, maybe the iron or zinc in it is affecting me and inhibiting things. It is possible I am reaching the upper safe limit for zinc in my body, and should restrict it in diet. I have certainly been eating and taking a lot for two months now, though I did heavy chelation for part of that.

Nitric Oxide, histamine, etc feel decent, though not amazing. I think my mucus production has increased- I have been coughing it up loudly all morning, and my sinuses are congested (they mostly haven't been like that for weeks or longer, I think this is good). I do have a scary sounding cough today, it is almost hacking.

I am not in lots of pain right now, but I'll need to see if this continues throughout the day. It may be that the probiotic yogurt and/or the malic acid was effective in killing the colon infection for now, but the probiotic bacteria do seem to be causing at least some lower grade pain and inflammation still, though less from when I had just eaten it last night, as I followed it up with carrots, vinegar, butter. I can certainly see what gbolduev means when he said that probiotics made some people lose their hair. I won't eat any probiotic yogurts again unless my colon infection flares up again.

I am still finding it hard to believe how warm my hands and head and body are right now. ALA chelation did this, and I may just have only one more toxicity left before my body will be able to use copper again, and I will then be healed. However, if that mineral happens to not be chelated well by ALA, then taking lots more ALA to get rid of it will just imbalance me, so I will only use a bit of ALA again today. No more than the amount I used 2 nights ago.
I ask again, to anyone who knows, because this question is so important, if they know what mineral(s) tends to inhibit ceruloplasmin and make vitamin A toxic to the body when you have too much of that mineral. Is it iron, calcium? I suspect calcium (eg, all those people on the Ray Peat forum who drank lots of milk and now cant handle vitamin A), but I might also be toxic simultaneously in iron. So I will need to chelate both of those if that's the case. Is ALA very effective for either of them? What are the effective chelators specifically for calcium?


A relevant fact here is that my bone structure and teeth have weakened visibly in the last couple of months. Is this chelation or my body being unable to maintain calcium metabolism, causing calcium to leach from bone? Or is it from my body needing lots of calcium to handle my high phosphorus intake, and so they both get excreted from the body? Shoudl I still be restrictign calcium in my diet, which I've been doing for 2 months? If my bones have less calcium in them, does this mean that more calcium has entered my cells and soft tissues, and so I am now MORE toxic in calcium than before? If this is true then I must chelate calcium, but what is the best way to do that, while not messing with your bones? I won't take EDTA ever again because it does that for sure.

I will need to keep avoiding copper like the plague, or I will lose my progress. And I must restrict iron and manganese too, if I can.

So I'll take a bit more ALA today, and see how that goes. I have more loud bile sounds right now, but those could be from the malate last night just temporarily increasing NADPH.

To answer the comments (thank you for posting here, everyone, I really do appreciate it, even if I might disagree with what you say). These were wiritten yesterday, so the ALA I took "last night" is now 2 nights ago:

You are going from one extreme to another. Not sure how you want to archive any balance like this. It wont be 2g of b1 or 10g of calcium that will be your instant cure.

If you think you improved,I would say to do nothing. Just normal food for at least 4 weeks. Thats the only sane option imo. I doubt any tests at this moment are reliable.
Chelation actually can and will be an instant cure, if I do it right (Which is why I'm being cautious at the moment). It has been for me in the past multiple times now- when I was zinc poisoned low dose ALA was what finally fixed it (it took a few days after for my kidneys to do the work to get me out of alkalosis). When I was magnesium poisoned (ALA briefly cured it in late August but I couldn't keep it there because I still had too much mercury at the time to keep chelating with ALA. DMSA a few weeks later fully cured it, but made other minerals too low), and multiple times on and off with copper toxicity since the DMSA disaster, including probably again last night.

It is actually shocking and very hard to believe how taking a chelator can instantly make thousands of enzymes start working again. I would find it hard to believe myself if I hadn't experienced it multiple times now. These were all cases of course where I had only been toxic in these nutritional minerals for a relatively short time (no more than a few months), so I hadn't accumulated gargantuan quantities of them over many years, which would be way trickier cause you have so much more to remove. It just seems to be the case that as soon as enough excess minerals leave your cells, they immediately reactivate various functions again.

I cannot do nothing, unfortunately. I'll go back to being toxic in copper again, it won't take much with my high levels of it that I still have and it's impractical to fully avoid it in food. I will also keep accumulating more iron and whatever else I might be toxic in (calcium? Manganese? Molybdenum?). In each of the above cases I would never have gotten better if I had done nothing I would've gotten worse and worse, and time would make it harder and harder to fix, and in the magnesium case I was very worried I might actually die from my gut infections that it enabled, or get neurodegeneration from low estrogen (I know my current low estrogen problem is not from magnesium toxicity, becuase magnesium, like zinc before it, also put me in alkalosis and made me fat intolerant. I have tolerate fats very well since DMSA. This is unless magnesium sctually doesn't do this and I was actually secretly toxic in something besides it, and DMSA got rid of both of them, but the timeline makes this unlikely). PEople who poion themselves with mienrlas from supplements or food rarely have their bodies fix themselves from that point. This is my own experience and what I see in other people's cases on forums. Chelation has saved my life multiple times now, fixing me very rapidly of multiple mineral toxicities. Chelation is the ONLY way I can get better (and lots of other people, too).

You need a reality check man.

Those are problems that develop over years and it takes years to fix them as well.
No, read what I said in my posts. These current problems developed only over the last 3 months, since late september. My original problem was mercury, and my first DMSA round basically fixed it, and further chelation in October mopped up the last of it, so like 90+% of my mercury is gone. At that same time when I used DMSA, it imbalanced my other minerals, a completely new problem, and I screwed up the aftermath since no one has written in detail about this problem anywhere I can find, and made myself toxic in calcum iron and copper before I could restore my other minerals it had depleted. I think that if I had just taken all the minerals in the right order and not excessively, that would have fixed me within a few weeks. I think that now I can fix myself very quickly at this point just by chelating the minerals I'm still toxic in, since I've taken in all the minerals for a while now.

My problems now are barely more than 3 months old. Not years. I was briefly fully healed then, and I can get back to that point very quickly if I don't mess it up.

I think some other people here (but certainly not all) might be able to fix their problems very rapidly as well with chelation. I hope my case once I'm successful will help some people achieve that.

You cant just take chelators constantly and expect for these minerals to teleport out of the body.
No, I expect them to be pulled out of my body, by the chelators that I took to bind to them. Like what happened to me last night, and multiple times before that in 2019.

All the way from tissues, through bloodstream, through liver, through bile, through ducts, to intestines you need lots of reducing power

to transport small amounts of minerals which react with oxygen.
These are the body's normal ways of ridding itself of minerals when it is functioning properly. My body because it is poisoned with minerals does not make the enzymes required for some of these processes, so my body will never fix itself of this problem. This is why I take chelators.

MT, glutathione, ceruloplasmin are able to bind minerals with amino acids because they are kept charged with NAPDH.

NADPH is a storage molecule for extra electrons (reducing power) the body is able to generate from food.

Without electrons minerals cannot be fixated into proteins.

With enough reducing power the body is perfectly equipped to move copper or iron wherever it wants.

But this process is not instant. It takes a lot of time because you are not able to generate tons of NADPH every day and the

proteins themselves have a limited carrying capacity.
The body can only make NADPH from food if the enzymatic pathways for it are open. They have not been open for me. The body needs it to get rid of minerals on its own, but with too much of these minerals it cannot make it anymore, so the body is trapped. Only chelators can save it.

You think you can bypass this process by taking grams of DMSA and ALA??

haha ok. good luck.
Yes, I do think I can. I have done it before, several times, very rapidly in each case. This is how plenty of people have cured themselves from mercury poisoning as well, which is something that in many of those cases, including my own, would never have resolved itself on its own. @Helen / gbolduev himself also has recommended and praised chelation in many posts of his, as something that has cured multiple people he knows of.

I don't intend to take DMSA anymore, anyways, though perhaps someone could convince me if they gave good reasons. ALA is much safer if you aren't mercury or arsenic poisoned. The only issue is that different chelators are better or worse at getting different minerals, so maybe ALA isn't the best for my remaining toxicity (or maybe it is and if I just take more I'll be healed- I don' know and this is why I'm asking for help for this last stage), and could imbalance me. That's why I want advice at this stage.

I'm almost sure your pains are caused by the stuff you keep taking that you think you need but is actually disrupting your homeostasis.
My pains are caused usually by vit A, PUFA, tryptophan, but especially my colon infection. I didn't give that to myself. I've had sweet smelling stools (sign of c diff spores) all year, perhaps much longer (I let a doctor give me antibiotics a few years ago, maybe that started it), but they never caused me pain even once until after DMSA put my ceruloplasmin to 0. C diff is killed by contact to copper, and most people do not get colitis and excruciating pain from it even if they carry the spores, so I am sure it is just because of my recent mineral imbalance that makes me unable to use copper, and as soon as I fix that the infections will go away.

I don't keep taking stuff. I'm taking potassium, am starting chelators again after being off them for a few weeks (except a couple times earlier this week in small amounts), and the TEI vitamins I did last week and this week that I am very wary about continuing, sometimes digestive enzymes, and sometimes things to kill gut bacteria. These things are not disrupting my homeostasis, except chelators, which actually improve it when not overdone. How can these be causing my pain, when I've observed most of my pain occurs at specific times in the day a certain amount of time after meals, and responds to antibacterial stuff, and only starts happening again when my body restarts release of bile, which only is ever restored by chelation? Because the pain is caused by bacterial autointoxication- an infected and inflamed colon leaking toxins into the blood.

Copper and iron toxicity are chronic problems with long term effects. They don't cause acute spikes of pain.

Several hundred milligrams of ALA in one evening... what???

If this is not causing you to crash, you don't have a mercury or copper problem.

And if you have mercury or copper problem you are insane for taking these amounts.
I know that. They cause the pain indirectly. By shutting off ceruloplasmin, they suppress the immune system and peristalsis, so infections in the gut go crazy, and these are what cause most of the pain. Other pains also come from low CP- tryptophan intolerance, vit A intolerance. So once I restore CP by balancing my minerals through chelation, all these problems will go away immediately.

Several hundred mg ALA is normal dose for over the counter ALA supplements, marketed to general public as an "anti-oxidant" (because it is a chelator) good for the liver. Lots of people take them in this amount, for neuropathy, etc. If I had taken this amount several months ago, it would have killed me from mercury redistribution, but I don't have a mercury problem anymore. I fixed it. I didn't as of October, when I first was able to take these large doses of ALA, when just 1.5 months before I couldn't take more than 12 mg.

I already said many times mercury was my original problem, but is not my problem anymore. It has not been my problem since September-October, after first DMSA round that screwed me up elsewhere. And my copper toxicty has not been the years-long copper toxicity many people have. I had almost 0 copper in September right after I took DMSA. I only made myself toxic in copper in the weeks that followed, from lack of info on the proper ceruloplasmin restoration process, and taking way too much from liver and supplements, since I didn't realize at the time what the problem actually was. The same occurred with iron, and then with calcium from too much cheese. These 3 toxicities are completely new, from the last 3 months. They never existed before. But if you have just 1 mg copper (or any mineral) too much, wherever that point is for your body given its size, then that will shut off a bunch of functions and imbalance it. So my copper toxicity existed as not having much more copper than this threshold but that was still enough to imbalance me, which is resolved instantly whenever I chelate that amount out, as I've done maybe 3 times now. This is why ALA doesn't cause massive copper dump symptoms for me, but still improved me.


I think many cases of burnout and 4 lows might be from being toxic in multiple minerals. They each shut down so many things, and it seems that they are cumulative with each other. When you've been toxic for years it is sooo much harder to fix and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Fortunately my current toxicities are all very recent- just a few months old at most.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#24
_____________
Double Edit:
Wow, so at dinner I seemed to have become a little bit sensitized again to the hormones in butter- causing a little scalp tingling and acne (my assumption/hope is that this means my body is starting to turn on estrogen receptors again). This may be a result of chelating with IP-6 and ALA last night. But that does not mean I should just plow forward with more of these chelators. Also, when I ate dinner I had not eaten for many hours and my stress response was activated I think from running low on fuel. So maybe that slightly forced up estrogen receptors as well from stress, so it may not be a real improvement.

My pain from my gut is not as bad or intense as earlier this week thanks to the measures I took the last couple of days, but some is still present. It is a real distraction and handicap on my life. I need to cure myself now. If anyone could answer my questions here, that would be really helpful. Things are still very precarious here, and I don't know if I can handle another week or two like the last few. They have really taken a lot out of me, even with all the improvements from ALA a few nights ago..

Edit:
So it sounds like my liver is releasing bile still, from just now. That is good. Maybe the chelation last night with ALA and IP-6 helped more.
Just after writing this post, I remembered Ronald Roth's website, and it does have some information that could be very useful:

Iron Manganese DRI/RDA, benefits, side effects, overdose, toxicity, requirements
Vitamin C overdose/deficiency symptoms, benefits, side effects
Calcium and Magnesium
Phosphorus Sodium DRI/RDA, benefits, side effects, overdose, toxicity, requirements

So vitamin C supposedly chelates manganese, zinc, and calcium. Could this be behind the observation of someone here (I think it was @Bankai900 ) that men who keep their hairlines often eat a lot of oranges? That the vitamin C and other chelating compounds in citrus keep the scalp and blood vessels decalcified? So I should just spam kiwis and low vit A citrus and that will lower my calcium? And it will increase my needs for zinc and managnese which it also chelates?

My big question here is whether vit C removes just intracellular calcium, or calcium deposits, or calcium in bones and teeth, or all 3? Do I need to be worried about my teeth and bones being eroded away if I just go heavy on vit C? And earlier this week before I stopped using it I noticed that ascorbic acid did turn into oxalates for me.

And phytic acid/IP-6 it looks like does remove calcium, but also from bones? And would the amount of phosphorus in it alongside my high protein intake be a real problem? And if anyone knows of a phytate supplement without any calcium in it to begin with, that would be very helpful as well.

So if iron and calcium toxicities are my problems right now, which compounds should I take to chelate them safely?

_____________


So- I think my problems now might entirely stem from Iron and/or calcium toxicity. I know that I poisoned myself with dietary calcium in October, and that I lowered it with further DMSA chelation in November, which may be why my estrogen and adrenaline began to be restored then for a couple weeks before going away (did the small amounts of calcium I would've taken in then from vegetables, etc, undo that? That's very possible). I know that without ceruloplasmin you cannot use iron properly and so you accumulate it in organs. I am pretty sure that has happened to me at this point.

So if I just use the right chelators, I should be able to fix myself this week, I think. I just have a few questions to help me choose the right chelators and doses:
Do any of you know if iron or calcium, or both, are the minerals that when you are toxic in them will cause low ceruloplasmin/estrogen and make vitamin A toxic for a person?If any of you could give me confirmation of this it would be very helpful and give me great peace of mind, because then all that remains is to remove the iron or calcium with chelation. The practitioner Garrett Smith has noted that a lot of his Vitamin A intolerant clients came from a Ray Peat diet, and lots of people on the Ray Peat forum became intolerant to vitamin A after practicing his dietary principles for a while (calcium poisoning from milk, but could it also be becoming iron toxic from eating liver as slow oxidizers?).

So I'm working under the assumption that my vitamin a intolerance and low ceruloplasmin, which started for the first time in my life right after my first DMSA use in September, originally occurred then due to DMSA making me deficient in cofactor minerals needed for ceruloplasmin, like selenium, molybdenum, zinc, potassium, magnesium, manganese, etc. And that if I had taken these in alongside eating liver for copper and iron, but not supplementing tons of them (I panicked b/c I was anemic, my memory and cognition were gone, I was scared of getting permanent neurodegeneration from no copper delivery to cells, etc. I felt like I was going to die, and taking these things caused what seemed like improvement every time I took them- I didn't know then the proper procedure for restoringg ceruloplasmin), I would've been fully healed within a couple of weeks. In fact, a couple weeks after I noticed my adrenaline seemed to be restored, and I had tons of walking speed, energy etc, despite having taken in too much iron and copper by then. This went away soon after when I began to eat too much calcium.

So my assumption is that my low ceruloplasmin and low vitamin A were at first from DMSA depleting minerals needed for them, and that if I had taken in those minerals properly I would've been healed quickly, and that now I do have all those minerals cause I've eaten mineral rich foods for months now, but my low ceruloplasmin and vit A intolerance are still here now for a different reason because because I made myself toxic in iron and calcium, and those two will cause this. So if I simply chelate iron and calcium, my ceruloplasmin will be restored and I'll be fixed.
Does anyone know of a reason why this wouldn't be correct?

So I should probably heal quickly if I just chelate iron and calcium out. I already improved a lot instantly this week just from using ALA, which I think lowered copper. So now I will just repeat this process with these other two toxicities, but I need to know the right chelators for this purpose. What are the best chelators for this? Especially for calcium? I know EDTA and DMSA lower calcium, but I cannot safely use either of them right now. And it has been said here that thiosulfate can decalcify, but when I looked at the studies for it they said that this effect was only very weak. Can you tell me what you know about all this @Helen? Or anyone who would know? Can anyone here tell me what they know about chelating Fe and Ca? Does ALA chelate calcium and iron? I think Ip-6/phytic acid does chelate calcium (and iron, cadmium, lots of other things, etc), but I haven't been able to find a supplement of it that doesn't itself contain calcium to begin with.I know zinc and manganese can help, but I've already taken in about as much as I think is safe. I know lots of dietary protein increases urinary calcium secretion, but not nearly as well as chelators do. Eg, I've eaten kilograms of protein in recent weeks, but what fixed my copper toxicity in the end was just less than a full capsule of ALA.
Does anyone know of an Inositol/phytate supplement without calcium? And does phytate lower iron in both the liver and brain?

If I also have manganese toxicity that will be fixed I think by these other chelators in the process, so I'm not as worried about that, though maybe I should be.

I might have bought myself a reprieve from my agonizing infections this weekend by using probiotic bacteria and then killing those off with food, but they could return at any time, and I can't continue like this for much longer. If you guys could please answer my questions about chelation, and whether Iron and calcium toxicity make copper biounavailable and cause vitamin A to become toxic, so I can fix myself before that happens and my life falls apart for good.

Last night I took more ALA and IP-6, and I am pretty sure the latter was chelating some already oxidized iron, but I haven't had any enzymatic restoration like I did with the ALA dose before that. It could be that I have iron toxicity and if I kept pushing with higher and higher doses I would fix things very quickly, but I am remaining cautious for now because I want to be more sure, and I want to know if ALA/IP6 chelate calcium effectively as well. If I could just know what compounds can safely lower Fe and Ca I could probably heal myself very soon. Anyone who knows something about this, please share!

Also, is chronic phosphorus toxicity a thing, and something I should be worried about? I have eaten a lot of phosphorus recently, while avoiding calcium.


Daily update:

Yesterday I did not get any pain sensations of the type that the colon infection produces, probably due to it being killed off for now by lactic acid. However, I did get continuous pain sensations and ringing in ears from the lactic acid producing probiotic bacteria, as I have in the past. It was never intense or excruciating but still was enough to really lower my energy and bother me throughout the day. I slept a lot, due to having to catch up. I ate more carrots with vinegar, and more butter, hoping that they will kill off these probiotic bacteria. This morning they seem to have done that to a significant degree, though they are not all dead yet.

The infections in my gut are what make everything so difficult. They take away my energy, my sleep, my peace of mind and emotional well-being. They make me dumber and more forgetful. They make it very difficult to engage in day to day life. TEI as far as I can tell will put you on an overall program designed to change your pH to kill off such infections, but they don't do it fast enough. They don't seem to account for the fact that with recurring infections like these someone like me will not have enough time for their program to work. The infections have effectively put a strong time limit on my recovery process. I have to fix myself soon, or disaster could strike. Until then they will keep damaging my liver, brain, blood vessels, colon, etc, and seriously disrupting my life.

I have to aim to cure myself NOW. This week. There is only one way to do that. It is what has worked in the past several times now for me to get healed of similar problems of mineral toxicity within a few days. That way is chelation.

Last night I took several hundred more milligrams ALA, and several hundred milligrams IP-6 (calcium magnesium phytate). Ip-6 I think gave me some pains throughout body- from oxidized iron being thrown around? It also possibly gave me pain in my liver- is IP-6/phytic acid treated as a toxin by the liver, and so will damage it, the same way that DMSA is?

This morning I have had continuous on and off low grade pain, some from the remaining acid bacteria, and some from the chelation last night (displaced iron causing damage, or maybe copper or calcium being pulled from blood vessels?). I am still pretty tired. My hands and body remain very warm, my breathing rate is still up, my balls still have their hang restored for much of the day, my voice is still generally deeper when I'm not under a lot of stress, my nitric oxide and histamine and mucus production and prolactin (eg, last night after dinner I got very sleepy, this hsn't been the norm for some time) are all decent again. I continue to have a loud cough that soemtimes makes me hurt myself form violent convulsions across my body, and my sinuses remain congested. I think my bile production continues, though not as much as I'd like. My mouth still waters noticeably again at the thought of food. All these improvements that I gaine da few ngihts ago from several hundred mg ALA, remain. My estrogen remains at zero, however. I still remain unable to shed tears, my scalp itch and charisma, wit, memory, and learning - all estrogen dependent- remain suppressed, etc. And of course, my body is still unable to take care of these bacterial infections on its own. This is why I MUST heal myself soon. This week. I cannot guarantee my safety or my sanity if the next few weeks are like the last few, or especially if the next few months are like the last few. I need to cure myself NOW. Please, anyone, answer the questions at the top of this post if you can. This could be a very simple case from here, I just need confirmation of my hypotheses so I won't risk imbalancing myself further from using the wrong chelator.
 
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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
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#25
I didn't chelate again yesterday or last night. I am still not trying to go into this too fast, but I may try it again later today, cause my infections aren't completely suppressed even now.

But if my problem rn is just too much iron and Calcium, won't IP-6 and Phytic Acid And Vitamin C fix that very quickly if I just push through with them? I want to discuss it first and get other opinions though just to not risk anything, but that I am inclined to go forward with it soon if no one gives me any answers, because my infections are being so harmful to me and I can't function much longer with my immune system still not fully working, which comes from these mineral toxicities causing low copper use.

Remember that I had a significant permanent improvement earlier this week from ALA, I think because it lowered copper. My body temp is still very warm, and in lot of ways my body is functioning superbly well, making androgens cortisol probably thyroid, ventilation is up, digestion is not terrible, I have a very fast walking speed when my infections aren't acting up, etc. I'm just missing the estrogen/adrenaline side of things still. And that comes I think from calcium and iron, which I have to remove, and then if I'm right I'll be instantly cured.

I'm not like a chronic fatigue case, where nothing seems to be working. Most things do seem to be working, except for everything dependent on copper. And this one problem is just a massive threat and distraction because of vulnerability to Vit A, gut infections, and my poor memory and no sweating / SODs. So this is why I am very optimistic I can be cured soon, but assistance with my questions here would be very helpful, or I'll just have to jump into more chelation without prior discussion.

Remember that my problems now are only a few months old. I have cured such problems before very rapidly by using low to moderate dose chelation (with zinc, magnesium copper toxicities- each time they were recent- no more than a few months old and not years old, but I still fixed them instantly with chelators), and in each case those problems had been there for weeks or months. This isn't a case of someone being sick for years and needing years to recover. But if I dont fix myself soon and restore my immune system then my infections could make that actually happen.

@Helen
I would love it if we could continue the discussion from the other thread here, about chelation. I think we might not actually disagree on much, we are just misunderstanding what the other is saying and so are attacking strawmen. Like, chelating in my case is very different from in yours because you have tons of lead, but I don't have toxic metals anymore, I just have toxicities of nutritional metals, which in my experience are far easier to chelate. So I don't think I'd get permanently damaged from modest doses of chelators.

Please, discuss this with me here. It would be helpful not just to me but to others who read this thread in the future.

And if after we discuss it you still think I'm wrong then you can warn me against this path, and I will strongly consider your point of view.

I really do think I am so close to fixing everything though. Just please help me out with discussing this before what may be the final stage to recovery. and if we discuss it and it turns out I'm wrong and it really will take me 5 years, then I will accept that and figure it out from there, it's just that multiple past experiences of mine seem to directly contradict some of what you've said, and make me think I am actually very close to being fixed. Again, my health problems now are very new, they are not years old like some of the others here.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
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#27
I've no idea about all of that, just asking out of curiosity how much of ALA?
When I first took ALA last spring, I took only a few dozen mg of it, in 3 separate doses taken 3 hours apart (9 hours total). This put in me in lots of pain and high blood pressure ringing in ears etc for like 3 weeks after that because of all the mercury it redistributed. I had to stop the round after 3 doses because it was too much. But a few days after this chelation I suddenly came out of my zinc toxicity that had been ruining my life (chemical castration just like PFS- 5AR shut off, scalp itch gone, low stomach acid, low bile, fats became inflammatory, weakened voice, etc) for 2 months, because it chelated zinc, and then my body took a few days probably to lower bicarbonate to come out of alkalosis. Then my hormones returned, etc, and it was fixed. In just a few days, chelation fixed me of that.

I didn't take ALA again for months. When I did it was in July or August to deal with the magnesium toxicity I had developed from my diet, that did a lot of similar things as zinc, but not exactly the same. I only took ALA in like 6 mg doses then, on and off. I relied more on stuff like gold to lower my mercury to help out there. I would've quickly cured myself of magnesium toxicity, which would've let me handle my gut infection and heal my liver etc, except for the huge load of mercury in me that prevented me from using more than a tiny dose of ALA.

In late August, I took like just 12 mg ALA and from that I got my magnesium down within a couple hours below the toxicity threshold (I had been restricting mag in diet as much as I could so that helped, but it was not enough without chelation to help), and so I was instantly healed, got my hormones and energy back, and cause I had lowered my mercury a lot over that month I had more energy for the next half day than I ever had in my entire life before. Tons of hormone production, naturally sweating like mad from exercise, walking down the street way more quickly and confidently than anyone around me. All cause I had lowered my mercury just like 1/4-1/3 of the way.

But then my magnesium was replenished from food and got me toxic again that same day after a large meal, cause I had only been just below the toxicity threshold and this brought it back up again. And I couldn't keep using ALA for a while cause I still had too much mercury, and then a bunch of stuff happened and my infection got way worse, so a few weeks later I had to take DMSA and while that fixed my mag toxicity it fucked me up by depleting other minerals.

Then I made myself toxic in calcium iron copper, cause I didn't fully understand yet what had happened, and I've been trying to fix these from chelation the same way ever since. In October I was eventually able to take a full gram of ALA at once (more than an entire capsule from the normal otc ALA supplements) because my mercury had lowered so much.

In October I took a few grams ALA total, to fix my new toxicities, which was premature in retrospect because I hadn't yet replenished all the minerals I'd lost from DMSA. So I got some symptomatic improvement from them at first, but then stagnation. In November I realized what had actually happened the last couple months, so I started replenishing other minerals very strongly. But that was when my new gut infection, the c diff ( I had beaten the old one, SIBO of some sort, mostly, I think, unless they actually were the same thing all along) started going crazy and putting me in intense pain, so for 2.5 months now I've been constantly fighting this horrific colon infection. Doctors are useless as usual, etc, so I've just been on my own to figure it out.

If I could just fix my new mineral toxicities my body would be able to take care of it just fine though cause all the enzymes would be restored. November and December I've been going back and forth between being toxic and nontoxic in copper, cause I'd chelate and get out of copper toxicity and improve, then I'd not be sure what mineral lowering had caused that, so I'd allow myself to eat more copper-rich foods again, then I'd become toxic again, and have to repeat. This week I repeated this for what I intend to be the last time, cause now I know from that trial and error that my copper is at the upper end of the range. So this week I took ALA several hundred mg, and that I think brought copper down again cause now my body temp and some of my hormone production and other thins are back. I took that much ALA again with IP-6 2 nights ago. I think my remaining low estrogen problem now just comes from being toxic in calcium and/or iron, so that's why I'm asking everyone what they know about chelating these two or if electrolytes protocol would accomplish the same thing.

@Helen if you read this post carefully you'll see why my experience leads me to believe that in cases like mine, chelation can completely cure me in a week. If you think I'm wrong then please tell me why and we can discuss this and maybe learn some new things out of this.


And update for today:

Wow, I haven't taken anything today, just eaten good food, but I seem to be getting big bile release sounds right now after a meal. Excellent! My temps have been excellent all throughout the day, as had my energy, walking speed, presence, androgens, etc. Estrogen etc remains dead though. Catching up on sleep and having a couple days with my severe gut infection relatively under control (for now) have really helped. I'm not gonna take vinegar again, even tho I think it helped kill some of the probiotic bacteria this weekend it also caused me a ton of pain, in my liver, brain, etc.

But my position is still an unstable one, and I want to try for more major improvements in the next few days rather than just do nothing and risk the infection coming back. And I need to get the remaining enzymes working again so my liver and gut can heal, etc. The longer they spend being battered by bacterial poisons and oxidative stress the worse my situation becomes. I want help if anyone can give it figuring out which chelator(s) would be the best for me here, and which other minerals that chelator will lower so I know to replenish them.
 

Bankai900

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2019
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Poland
#28
Again sry for throwing myself in, it's definitely the last time. As said I've not the slightest idea about this stuff. I just read what might be good for me personally and go for it without dwelling on details. I was taking 300mg(was pretty sure even that was a low dose, or ar you directly injecting lol) of ALA for 2months~ aswell as copper antagonists to move it, which probably didn't even happen. Just wanna say that maybe @opiath and @HerrFisch aren't that wrong here mate. Your system is crazy unstable like this. Take a break and restart a little, almost every single person here went from feeling great to vegetable overnight. And just like that almost noone managed to fix themselves overnight.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#29
(Edit: update for tonight: I took 4-500 mg or so of IP-6, felt a bit foggy headed and weird in head for a bit (chelation of metals from brain, maybe iron, small amounts of mercury from the tons of fish I've been eating recently, etc), now feel more clear-headed than before, body temp is up (but don't feel like this is from cortisol). Still have been getting what I think are bile sounds. It seems that IP-6 is indeed an incredible chelator of iron, and can reverse aging, but also it is claimed that it can decalcify soft tissues without weakenijng bones the way that EDTA does. The only problem is the Ip6 supplement I have and all the ones I could find, contain a lot of calcium bound to it. Does anyone know of one without calcium?

I also have been looking for sources besides the acu-cell website for ascorbic acid depleting calcium. I have not found any yet. Can anyone confirm this claim? Does vitamin C resolve excessive calcium in the cells or soft tissues? )

Then I took a gram or so of ascorbic acid again, for the first time in multiple days. I myay try using the TEI vitamins again, and lower amounts of their nutrients. I will see where this takes me. ).

Again sry for throwing myself in, it's definitely the last time. As said I've not the slightest idea about this stuff. I just read what might be good for me personally and go for it without dwelling on details. I was taking 300mg(was pretty sure even that was a low dose, or ar you directly injecting lol) of ALA for 2months~ aswell as copper antagonists to move it, which probably didn't even happen. Just wanna say that maybe @opiath and @HerrFisch aren't that wrong here mate. Your system is crazy unstable like this. Take a break and restart a little, almost every single person here went from feeling great to vegetable overnight. And just like that almost noone managed to fix themselves overnight.
No don't be sorry. I appreciate it when people post here in this thread. Thank you for posting here, actually.

Why were you taking ALA? That might be considered a low dose by sellers of the supplement, but I actually found it can temporarily lower my mineral transport function for a few days just from taking that much only once. That is part of why I'm cautious to take it daily or in these amounts very many times.

Yeah I've never exceeded one gram of ALA at once (I always take it orally), and normally it's just a few hundred and no more. And this is only after I got my mercury out. So you took more in those two months than I've taken in my entire life lol.



Why do you think they are right? I am open to being convinced I am wrong on the timeline for recovery, but no one has given me a well-reasoned argument for it yet. They've only not read the details of my posts and made comments based off their general impression without actually reading and reasoning through the details of what I'm saying and why. On this thread and the other one both.

It's actually really demoralizing. I give what as far as I can tell are well reasoned arguments, and I include lots of detail so that people will have the info they need to reason through it with me, but instead they take my addition of many details and writing style to mean I have racing thoughts, which I do not, or call me insane, which I am not. It's like if you include even one layer of nuance to an argument or a post, it will be effectively invisible to people, and so they'll misrepresent what you said and attack you for it, even though that's not what you said.

I am an openminded person and could be convinced I'm wrong if given enough evidence, but if you read my past experiences that I summarized in my last post, you'll see that I have been in very similar situations multiple times, and I have cured myself rapidly in each case with chelation. In each of these cases I had lots of enzymes in my body shut down, and if I had gone on this forum back then and told them about it they'd tell me that it will take years to heal, yet in each case I cured myself instantly with chelation.

"Chronic health issues that take years to fix" fixed in a single day with chelation.

@Helen denies that this could ever happen, but my experience empirically contradicts that, so that is why I would like to discuss it with him in a respectful manner, because we might break new ground that could help a lot of people in the future by doing that.

So I am simply going off of past experiences of what cured me from multiple months-long chronic health issues that people say will take forever to cure but actually don't, and try to share this to benefit others and to ask for help with this one final health problem I have, but people go apeshit for some unexplainable reason.

I try to share things I've found and experienced that are true or likely to be true, but instead people ignore what I actually say, and focus on side details that are not the main point of the post, and then call me mentally ill because they don't understand and aren't able or willing to take the time to try to study or understand a slightly alternative point of view. Mostly it is a complementary point of view, actually. If people would be open, they would see that what I've found here could be a very valuable addition to or basis of new protocols, that could get some people (not all, obviously), healed or improved much more quickly.

But then they just skim my posts and misrepresent me and say that when I talk about chelation I am talking about toxic metals like mercury or lead, which I am not, or am claiming mercury is the cause of everyone's problems, which I am not. They don't realize chelation can be not just for toxic metals, even when I say it has cured me instantly.



My problem is kind of urgent though, I dont think I can or should take a break, I just need to be sure not to be reckless either, which is why I've been asking for help here. I actually did take a break from chelating mostly for a few weeks, from mid december to early this month.

I can't just wait because then my infection will come back, and even at the moment it has not been fully killed off for now. And whenever it returns it ruins my life and fucks me up so bad. The only time when I'm mentally unhealthy is when I'm in intense pain. When it is gone for a while I actually feel really good and calm and smile a lot, and people want to socialize with me and find me likable and pleasant to be around, and I have great energy and hormone production except for estrogen, my one last problem. But people here for some reason think I am a burned out mental case who is years away from health.

Think about it. If you were in my position- where you have gotten very similar problems before and cured yourself from them instantly with chelation, and the same thing happens again except just a bit worse and also you have this extremely painful and stressful gut infection breathing down your neck because of this problem suppressing your immunity, wouldn't you want to try the method that has worked multiple times before, including partially again this very week, to cure yourself asap and fix everything for good?

That's not irrational. That's the rational and expected response. If people here just spent a bit more effort when they read my posts, they would see that too.
 
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Nov 6, 2017
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#30
I think you are overthinking things a lot dude and as a result you are going in circles.
How is your mental health? It sounds like you are stressing yourself out, which by itself can cause a lot of the issues you are experiencing. Have you tried meditating or other forms of de-stressing? You are clearly not in a position where you can make "educated guess" about your toxicity status or anything like that, nobody can do that.

I don't think anybody here has any answers to all your rambling questions. A lot of these topics are not well researched and anybody that replies is basically guessing themselves. My recommendation would be to get away from the forum for a few days, eat healthy, do healthy things(go outside, meet people, whatever floats your boat) and drink some tea and calm yourself the fuck down. Then go see a doctor, one for physical health and one for mental health.
Tell them you feel unhealthy and that your subjective feeling is that your body is not working so great at the moment and you would like their help and do some tests and examinations.

Have you taken your blood pressure lately? If not, please do so soon and also get a reading of your heart rate as well. If you do not have a blood pressure gauge you should be able get a free reading at your local pharmacy.
Please include the results in here.

I don't mean to sound patronizing but from the outside looking in it's clear you are unwell currently and shouldn't be doing "home experiments" and DIY fixes on your body, basically throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks. That's clearly not a healthy way to move forward and improve your health and well-being.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#31
@ShogunJZA

Responses like this are not helpful, and yes, you do sound patronizing. Actually, it's insulting- "my rambling questions." It's like hardly any person on this whole forum bothers to actually engage with the content and substance of my post, they just nitpick irrelevant details about my writing style. If you think a different writing style or presentation of things would help you or others understand better, then just tell me that in a respectful manner. That's at least helpful. And yes, I think I will try to make my posts more concise and simplified in the future, for this reason.

If people read more closely, they would see that I am actually not going in circles, but there is a method to what I am doing, based on what has cured me of very similar problems before. I get that TEI could balance me given enough time, but things like my horrific gut infection make me seriously question whether I can last that long.

So think about it, if you had this time sensitive dangerous infection pressing down on you and seriously disrupting your life, and it comes from what looks like a problem very similar in nature to other problems you have fixed multiple times very rapidly before with a solution (chelation), then wouldn't you go for the solution that has fixed you instantly before rather than risk spending months being turned inside out by TEI before they can balance you, with these bacteria threatening to come back and kill you at any time? Especially since I alreayd improved substantially and immediately from chelation just this week? People are saying that shouldn't be possible, but I have many experiences now where this sort of major improvement does happen in just hours or days.

My questions recently in this thread have mostly been pretty simple- about chelating calcium and iron safely, and the nature of what iron and calcium toxicity does to the body, and dealing with c diff. But no one answers them. I think I will make separate threads for each of these categories of questions, maybe I'll have more responses that way.

I got my blood pressure taken a few weeks ago at the doctor's office, and they said it was basically perfect. My blood pressure was actually pretty low for many many years, but after I chelated my mercury out it seems to have fixed itself along with a lot of other things related to metabolism.

I have seen two doctors in the last 2 months, and both have been very unhelpful. They basically disregard what I say, no matter how calmly or succinctly I explain it to them. I've had to treat my infection on my own, which keeps it down for a while every time but it always comes back. If it wasn't for my own hard work here and "obsessiveness" recently, I might well now be dead.

I have been doing healthy things like you mention. My mental health and overall energy when my infections aren't flaring up actually tend to be excellent. I just have this one remaining major problem (Ca and Fe toxicity, I think, which suppresses immunity and other things) and if I fix that, I should be cured. And then I actually think I will go on TEI to stay balanced long term, cause I'll be out of immediate danger and will finally have my life back.

I think my approach and my questions have been perfectly reasonable for the very extreme situation I've found myself in. But people here instead just insult me and deny that my multiple past experiences instantly curing myself of a variety of health problems through chelating nutritional mineral toxicities ever happened or are possible. Wouldn't that make you angry, too?
 

Minime

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2017
293
105
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#32
@Shuddering
It says that they commonly give antibiotics in cases of GI perforation. I have no clue what these could do to me right now, and I don't want to tend up with some serious fungal infection that will give me POIS or something down the line. Should I refuse antibiotic treatment? Accept it?
Is POIS caused by a fungus?
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#33
@Shuddering

Is POIS caused by a fungus?
Someone here on another thread said it was, I think, and that it can result from antibiotics imbalancing your body.



Daily Update:
Mostly pain free today, b/c of what I did to control the c diff for now, but it could come back at any time, and I am still stagnant after my improvements last week. I will make another thread to ask about dealing with this, since this is the biggest thorn (more like a knife) in my side, and makes it so that I have much less time to cure myself.

I think my main big problem suppressing my estrogen is calcium poisoning. I will make another thread asking about how to chelate it.

I took some more IP-6 last night, and could feel it chelating and then improving me a bit, but my estrogen remains at 0. I am going to not use ALA again for now since I think I got all the benefit I could from it without depleting myself of key minerals. ALA improved me majorly at first but now is not doing anything for me, so it is not worth the risks. But IP-6 I may stick with, and I will look into getting plain inositol to go alongside it, since they synergize to get rid of calcium allegedly.
I am cautiously trying the TEI supps again, cause I know they could fix me long term, I just don't know if I have that kind of time left to get better.

I am unsure about the b vitamins they recommend. B1 and B6 and other Bs in their doses seem to give me pain, discomfort, tingling, neuropathy, etc. Is this chelation they are doing, or is it them harming me? I am wary about continuing these for this reason.

Has anyone else had problems with the b vitamins or other compounds on TEI?

People say that I am taking all these things, but not really. I am taking TEI supps again, and besides that it has been cautious use of chelators mostly, and a ouple thigns to kill these bacteria. The same thing (chelators) that has cured me before of this sort of thing. I don't use supplements besides that, really, since I know they imbalance you.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,218
559
113
yes
#34
1What was your best copper chelator and where did you buy it?

2 how did you know you were toxic in minerals in the first place?

3 Why would you get toxic in minerals in weeks from food?

4 did you do a test for c diff? And what are your symptoms ?

5 Did you do any tests to support your claims, like excess calcium that suppressed your E.

6. What makes you think that you are “toxic” in so many minerals? I read Calcium, Magnesium, Copper, Iron, Selenium ...

To me your hairtest doesn’t show any toxicity that would need a strong medical chelator tbh. But maybe you see something I don’t.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#35
1What was your best copper chelator and where did you buy it?

2 how did you know you were toxic in minerals in the first place?

3 Why would you get toxic in minerals in weeks from food?

4 did you do a test for c diff? And what are your symptoms ?

5 Did you do any tests to support your claims, like excess calcium that suppressed your E.

6. What makes you think that you are “toxic” in so many minerals? I read Calcium, Magnesium, Copper, Iron, Selenium ...

To me your hairtest doesn’t show any toxicity that would need a strong medical chelator tbh. But maybe you see something I don’t.
1. I was able to chelate copper with a few things- ALA, DMSA, and IP6. Keep in mind that this was not years-long copper toxicity, this was something created in just a couple of months, where I started with near zero copper, and then took too much from supplements and liver to restore my depleted minerals after my first time with DMSA.

So I think of it like there's a level of copper in the body where it immediately causes a bunch of enzymes to shut down, and below that line it is safe and that doesn't happen, and so my levels while being toxic never got too far above that line so while they shut down all these enzymes it still took only moderate doses of chelators to get it below this line again back to safety. I repeated this process multiple times this fall of letting myself eat more copper again from food after chelation improved me, and then that modest amount making me toxic again and suppressing bile flow and temps and emotions, etc. Then I'd chelate again, and these body functions would return, and the process would repeat. Through this process, I've realized that my copper is basically floating around the upper range of safe, so from now on until I am healed I am indefinitely avoiding high copper foods.

This might sound like it was me just stumbling around, but it was not. The hairtests couldn't tell me what my true copper level is after my further chelation since my ceruloplasmin has been very low this whole time, so by this trial and error of chelating while watching symptoms and tracking mineral intake in diet, I have figured out a rough idea of where multiple minerals are in my body.

So the compounds I used are not necessarily useful for people who have been copper toxic for years, because they have so much more to get rid of. But for me I had these on hand and they worked for the smaller amount of copper I had to remove.


2. In my experience, the only thing that ever caused me chronic health problems like this, where the body shuts down many functions at once, is being toxic in a mineral, or fully deficient in one. I also eat a clean diet, don't use drugs or hormones or live an extreme lifestyle, so nothing insane that could really skew things- the closest was DMSA which did fuck me up.

So when I see my body has lost all these functions, and that I ate too much of 3 minerals recently (iron copper calcium), it tells me this is the problem. I was deficient in many minerals probably after DMSA round 1 in September, so that created my low ceruloplasmin then, but now my low ceruloplasmin I think is caused by too much of some minerals, since I have made sure to get lots of all the nutritional minerals in my diet since then. So by now I think I'm replete in everything.

Every time I've had similar problems, I fixed it quickly with chelation. And I improved substantially from chelation recently. You can also evidence from my hairtests, my calcium is so high compared ot other electrolytes, and this was from after I ate what I know is far too much calcium. And I get similar symptoms (vit A toxicity, low ceruloplasmin) to other people who have done a diet with tons of calcium (Ray Peaters). I am pretty certain that is the problem.


3. You can get toxic in minerals from just food very quickly if those foods are high in those minerals and if your body can't excrete or use them very well. I got toxic in zinc from eating 1-2 lbs of beef every day for just a few weeks. And I was eating like 2g of calcium a day for a whole month in October. Also, since my ceruloplasmin has been low for months, that predisposes me to accumulate iron and copper, since they are not used.


4. I think it is c diff because various fact about it seem to match perfectly with what is known about this bacterium. See the info here: The Mystery Of Spore-Forming Bacteria… (c. Diff & Others)
Everything mentioned there and elsewhere I have in common: A high calcium diet while being unable to use calcium probably left lots of Ca in GI tract, it responded violently to charcoal, I had sweet smelling stools (a sign of c diff spores) for many months before it ever activated and started hurting me, it only activated the first time once my ceruloplasmin became extremely low for the first time in my life ever (and c diff is killed by copper), it's prob not in the small intestine cause it doesn't respond to SIBO stuff the way other bacteria were for me, it gets killed by the same probiotic bacteria that people say work for c diff (lactobacillus, bifidus, bulgaricus, etc). Also, very importantly, it very clearly is only activated by bile! Remember the stuff I said above about going in and out of copper toxicity with diet and chelation this whole time? Whenever copper crosses above the line of toxicity again, my bile flow shuts off fully. Whenever this has happened the pain goes away soon enough. Whenever I chelate and bile flow restarts, this stuff comes back and puts me in intense pain for hours every day again. I have gone through this process like 4 or 5 times now, so it is very clear that it is triggered by the presence of bile. It has been an extremely reliable pattern.

I did get a stool test done for lots of things including this, but they all came back negative. Even if it is not c diff, everything indicates that it is a bacterium in my colon that can lie dormant for months and then activate and inflame the bowel and leak poisons into my blood, and has everything else in common with it that I listed above, and responds to exactly the same things.

Lol I mention all this stuff to doctors including a gastroenterologist and they basically disregard everything I say and imply I'm probably fine, even though I tell them I am getting intense life-ruining pain. I have had to rely entirely on info from the internet to figure this out and to keep the infection under control for the time being. I think though that once I lower my calcium enough, my copper metabolism will reactivate, and will kill off this infection for good. It never was a problem for me before my CP went to 0 in September.


5. All I have are HTMAs. My electrolyte ratios and how they changed in response to my documented massive consumption of calcium are very telling, I think. So it is "just" an educated estimated with lots of circumstantial evidence that together points to the same thing (what I was eating, how my symptoms got worse in response to it, how other people on high calcium diets often seem to get the same problems) - this type of educated guess has worked for me very well in the past before.


6. If I am toxic in any minerals now, I think it is just calcium and maybe iron (but I'm not nearly as worried about that- IP-6 gets rid of it and I think has already been improving me here). Because I have used moderate doses of chelators on and off to keep this in control, while watching my intake of different minerals.

I mentioned magnesium b/c I was toxic in it in the past, before this happened. Not anymore though. I think now I actually might benefit from more magnesium, and that will push out some calcium.

My hairtest I think does show that, especially when you consider that during this time I was eating so much calcium and my symptoms were worsening as I did that. Just look at the ratios with calcium, relative to K, P, Mg, in this post : Chelating Calcium and Decalcification. Toxicities frequently don't show up as high levels of something in the hair- often it is the opposite, because it is stuck within the body not being excreted.

And look at my new hairtest from mid-December in my next post, I think this supports my contention of calcium toxicity even more. I ate more calcium for a couple of weeks after the October hairtest, so that would've made things much worse. It looks like it was pushing me into 4 lows, and I believe that given how I felt back then (and still do but not as much- I've made improvements but E and CP are still 0).

Some of the most effective chelators are not medical grade drugs (that makes me think of stuff like D-penicillamine that doctors give for copper and has terrible side effects), and I was hoping there is one that is particularly effective for Calcium. Stuff like ascorbic acid, phytic acid, ALA, etc. These things tend to be easier on the body.

Thank your for the response and questions!
 
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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#36
I just read over this post, and realized that to some people this will read like I have a racing mind. I just want to dispel this notion for good. My writing style here has been like this because this is how I have written my own personal health notes and logs for a long time now. These posts aren't just for other people to help me, but they also are meant to be helpful to myself as well- as a form of notetaking, recording, and for generating new ideas and solutions to the challenges I'm facing.

My preference in my notes has always been to include lots of detail, because this allows me to figure things out that I otherwise would not have. I am able to recall all these details so quickly because I think about my health so much, out of necessity from my body being continuously in a dangerous position like close to 2 years now (but I am I think not all that far from my body finally becoming balanced). This is why posts are often very long and detailed.

It's not like I'm in some manic state just spewing out words as fast as I can type. Usually, when I wrote my long posts, I'll just be sitting at my computer for a couple of hours writing it out and thinking about my case. I generate useful new thoughts and ideas from this process, so it acts also as an opportunity for analysis. When I am writing these, usually I'm very calm and it makes me feel good and relaxed.

There have been just a couple of exceptions -one has been when my infections were flaring up / my colon became inflamed, and put me in so much pain. The other has been when someone says something that makes me really angry, which has happened in a couple of other threads. But I don't see a problem in that. I spent months last year being basically biologically incapable of getting and remaining angry. My emotions were suppressed, so I was almost zombie-like when it was at its worst. Mercury poisoning often has this sort of emotion-dulling effect, and it's terrible. So now that I have overcome that, I usually prefer to let my anger run its course rather than suppress it, since I'm so sick of spending years being disrespected by other people irl for not usually being able to express very strong emotions.

So please, when you read my posts, remember that this is just my writing style, and it serves a purpose for me. It's not a reflection of my mental state (except of how relaxing and calming it is for me to write lots of detailed sentences about figuring out my health problems for a few hours). In other threads, when engaging with other people, I am trying now to make short posts that people easily can read through instead. For my log, though, because it serves to act as a set of notes and as a mental resoruce and tool for me, I continue to write like this because this writing style is the best one for this purpose.

This is also just similar to how I have naturally written in general for many years. It's just something that has developed on its own over time, without my pushing it in any particular direction. I am instinctively predisposed to write out my train of thought, and to preserve it roughly as it is, rather than to remove lots of potentially useful information just to make it more concise.

This is just how I write, and it serves a purpose for me to write like this. If I am in an exchange with you, where we are responding to each other's posts, especially in another thread, it's perfectly legitimate to ask me to make short posts so you don't have to read much. I get it, and will be happy to oblige. But please, don't insult me or call me mentally ill just because my natural writing style is like this. I've never done that to anyone else here. It's a seriously fucked up and insulting thing to do.




Today's post:

So I finally got the results for my last HTMA back, one month after sending the sample (December 15 or so). It is here as an attachment to this post.

Remember that after my October hairtest, which already showed my calcium intake badly suppressing metabolism, I spent a few more weeks eating lots of cheese, making it much worse. So in this new one it looks like that was pushing me into 4 lows, which does not surprise me. In November I also did lots of chelation, and that no doubt lowered other minerals which makes the results look even worse. I will say that early November is when I realized that my problems started with DMSA in September depleting me of lots of things, so I began then to increase my intake of all sorts of minerals through food. So were it not for that my December results would be even worse.

Since the December hair test, I have continued to restrict calcium and copper from my diet, and eaten lots of zinc, manganese, magnesium, selenium foods, lots of animal protein. I tried the TEI supps (including 20mg of manganese once, a mistake imo) but was forced to back off because of problems with them, I also didn't chelate really during this time this last month except for last week. This will be informative for noting my improvements since then and in linking this December Hairtest to the next one.

My metabolic type changed to "Fast 4". Does the 4 mean 4 lows?

The "toxic metals" are really irrelevant for me. From how chelation feels now, I don't think they are much of an issue for me at all. My only issues are with nutritional minerals.

Copper dropped very low, but I know my body is actually quite high in it, just below toxic right now. It is low b/c my ceruloplasmin has been near-0 for months. I will continue to avoid dietary copper.

My body seemed to be able to use zinc quite well during early-mid December, and I had been taking it in from food for over a month by then. Since this December hairtest I've eaten tons more zinc, but also chelated some, but I will be careful to just only get it from food like beef. I will not take zinc again, even though TEI wants me to take tons of it.

My manganese was low, and I think that did reflect actually low levels, from chelation depleting it. I started eating lots of manganese foods in the week before I sent this hair sample, and almost immediately it lowered my zinc/3bhsd (I felt less progesterone/cortisol production, which made me sad because I like the feeling of those) and increased androgens, made my face look more masculinized again, deeper voice, etc. I then a couple weeks later made the mistake of taking in 20 mg manganese because TEI told me to. I have continued to get lots of it in food, but also have taken chelators recently (ALA IP-6 vit C) that lower it. I will keep getting manganese foods, but not much. Actually, I should avoid manganese for the most part. I might become toxic in it as well, if I'm not very careful from here.

And as for TEI giving these huge doses of minerals to block absorption of others (manganese for calcium, etc), I think IP-6 might work similarly well for it, no? While also chelating calcium from the body, and not making me toxic in more minerals. But finding a very effective calcium chelator would just be the real thing for me. That's what would fix everything.

Selenium was kind of low here, but I've eaten plenty of it from foods since then, but also taken ALA which depletes it (and maybe IP-6 does too, idk). I will keep getting more than enough selenium from meat and fish and plant foods. Definitely don't supplement with it, even though TEI wants me to.

Molybdenum is low, and I'd been chelating a lot, but I had supplemented molybdenum multiple times because of chelation, and had eaten a lot of foods high in it (peas beans butter etc). I am not low in molybdenum, and taking it would be dangerous and could make me toxic in yet another mineral (TEI also didn't have me on it, for good reason). It being low here does not mean it is low in the body. I will continue to avoid high molybdenum foods (molybdenum could be very dangerous for me) as I've been doing for the last month.

I didn't buy the boron testing, so the "N/A" does not mean it is actually low, but I was thinking of taking a bit more Boron because of chelation probably lowering it.

My body sulfur might actually be very high. I took like 20g of MSM in early September, and I've been worried about getting too much of it since then. I will remain wary of sulfur, but I'll still be getting a lot from protein.

Helen said that ARL doesn't give chromium to people with low potassium, and I am sure that's for good reason. I know TEI has me on chromium (ridiculously high amounts of it). I've gotten plenty of it in my diet in recent months anyways. I will continue to avoid high chromium foods, and not take it. I was considering taking a bit of chromium in line with TEI but after this I really think I won't. I will avoid chromium, from foods and supplements.

As for cobalt, I have no idea why that's high. I did take methyl b12 a couple of times before I sent this in, and I ate a lot of liver a couple of months before this hair test. This one is probably not relevant.

Iron lol I have plenty of iron, and even continue to get lots in my diet. I might even be toxic in it. It is low here because it is in organs, like gbold talks about, just like copper. My lack of iron use is reflected in my tryptophan intolerance from what I've read in his posts. This is from low cerulopasmin, and in my case that's probably from high calcium. Both iron and copper are built up in my liver and my brain, and ALA/IP-6 have them kept in check for now. Once I remove the calcium I think CP will come back and this problem will be fixed. I will continue to avoid high iron foods as much as I can (but I'm still eating lots of meat and some vegetables, this really can't be avoided right now).

I was eating plenty of phosphorus then for the couple of weeks preceding the hair sample since I realized I might be low in it (but I got a bunch with all that cheese before, so maybe not), and since then I have eaten so much phosphorus. Is this ever a problem? Can you make yourself toxic in phosphorus like with the other minerals, just from eating a high protein diet, or do the kidneys always excrete it? Actually, look at my Ca/P ratio here. In October my Ca was so much higher than P, but here the ratio is normal (from just a few weeks back then of eating lots of animal protein and taking lecithin sometimes and taking IP-6 a couple times?). Since then I've eaten little calcium but lots and lots and lots of phosphorus. Is this something to be worried about? Could someone answer this please?

I will keep taking modest amounts of potassium, TEI has me doing this and it makes sense. Magnesium I probably have plenty of, but maybe could use a bit more. But supplementing heavily with it is probably not a good idea. The real thing I have to do is just get rid of this calcium, and then my electrolytes will be allowed to go up.



Look at the electrolyte ratios here. They are terrible. All this calcium is suppressing everything else. That is problem #1 I think, and once I fix it everything will start to really improve and the remaining problems or imbalances will be easily fixed. Remember that before all this happened I was basically healed. I had some mercury left but that was it, and now that is gone as well from chelation. So all my current problems are just a few months old. It's not like there will be much more for me to do to be healthy once the calcium is gone.

And even the Zn/Cu and Fe/Cu (both low ceruloplasmin) and Na/Mg (low adrenals? Calcium suppressing adrenaline/SAMe? I certainly feel like my adrenaline production is greatly impaired) are from calcium as well. Calcium is my major, primary root cause. I need a dedicated chelator supplement to remove it, and then all these other things will be normalized. 5 of my 7 significant ratios are bad, all because of calcium.



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The big thing for me to tackle now is chelating calcium. Anyone who knows about this, please share what you know! All I need to be fixed is just ONE effective and safe calcium chelator! I will keep following TEI alongside this as much as I can, but it may be that all I can sustain is their dietary recs (which I've been following for over a month) and a few of their supplements like vitamin C. The b vitamins and the mineral supplements they have me on just seem to not be helpful and to actually be inherently harmful to me right now.

I am going to look for a pure inositol supplement, to add to IP-6, which I haven't taken for a couple of days. I have read that the combo of these 2 chelates calcium (despite the calcium in IP-6) and is more effective than either alone for this. But I want to hear about other obtainable supplements that work for this, if they exist. The more effective a chelator is for calcium in particular, the better, since I may need to take a lot, but a less specific one would deplete me strongly of other things.



My case is an interesting example. It exhibits how consuming large amounts of just one mineral (calcium) from common staple foods (cheese, milk- and everyone above a certain age in the US is told to supplement with it) can put you into 4 lows, and make iron and copper unusable and so suppress them in the hair as well, causing suppressed immunity (vulnerability to life-threatening infection- hence Peat recommends and uses antibiotics), suppressed thyroid and adrenals, 0 E2 (no sex drive, weak emotions, poor long memory recall (I could totally see how this causes dementia if you don't keep iron and copper in check with chelators and eat a very clean diet, which I have. I have kept my cognition intact from this, but my memory still is not great)), 0 collagen production (so all these doctors telling everyone to take calcium and vitamin D for their bones are just making them worse, and killing them, and their bones will only get worse cause collagen is not being produced), no elastin production (weak blood vessels, CVD heart attacks strokes become a danger especially with risk of infection from lowered immunity, and taking thyroid for this does even more damage), vitamin A becomes toxic (all the Peaters who have to start eating low vitamin A diets after doing his diet with all that calcium), high TSH from low copper, low vitamin D and suppressed calcium metabolism (so all the calcium you keep eating or taking just piles up), you can become diabetic (during october and november I was worried this was happening to me, like happens to other people on the RP forum, and that the only thing keeping me functional was eating lots of dairy fat, but since then as I stopped the calcium and got my minerals closer to balance (lots of zinc manganese selenium potassium) my glucose use seems to have improved a lot and I don't depend on fat as much).

Hence, Ray Peat, and his followers, and all the things that they have to take just to poorly compensate for the huge imbalances caused by just one mineral, in my case from "only" 2g or so of it per day for a month (though my body was still very imbalanced then from DMSA depleting minerals, and I still had a lot of calcium in me from earlier that year when I drank lots of milk and supplemented with eggshells (I'm cringing just remembering that time)).

Basically, I just listed all the things that Gbolduev said were the problems with Ray Peat's approach and the people on that forum. He was right about everything, everything he said there was completely true, and he kept getting attacked for speaking the truth but still kept trying to help people. Thank you sir, for all the information you have put out there for free! It has been so helpful to me, and to many others, as I'm sure you know.

This also has a lot of similarities with how most modern Westerners age. They do often take in way too much calcium and it does this, and iron and PUFA and sedentary lifestyle with too much sugar do the same. And they build on each other, and eventually you are just a slow-walking block of rust, limestone, carbon dioxide, and copper with an infected inflamed backed up gut, all insulated in a blubbery coating of vegetable oils.

The explanation above re Calcium seems to be coherent, and consistent with all the facts about my case, but I still want to always consider the possibility that something else is at fault and that I might be wrong. Does anyone know of other potential causes of chronic low estrogen/ceruloplasmin?



Update for last couple days:

Yesterday I didn't take anything. I had hoped to take the TEI stuff again, but was very busy and didn't think I could handle them for that day. In the middle of the day yesterday I went through some bad pain, that I think was a vitamin A detox, given what it felt like. But after the pain went away, I suddenly got tons of energy and presence, and walked for miles in my city at a very fast pace, smiled a lot without trying, etc. To the outside observer, I wouldn't look like a sick person at all, I actually might look like one of the healthiest people there. Temps were very good, mood was very good (several days now without my infection seriously breaking out, thanks to the probiotic bacteria).

Today I found time for lots of rest, and still had a lot of increased energy/presence continuing from yesterday.

Some of the TEI supplements are brutal. I use the same components separately, rather than the TEI packs themselves, because there are a few things in them I absolutely cannot handle, like 20mg manganese a day, or thousands of units of vitamin A every day (this one would be so bad for me, just the amount I get in butter is terrible). I am wondering though when the pain and physical stress they cause is due to them detoxing/chelating versus when my body actually can't handle them and so the compound is inherently useless and toxic to me. Because then what is the point? So like thiamine and b6 give me neuropathy and stuff, vit C with citrus bioflavonoids gives me bad pain, ringing in ears, rapidly pounding heart (and this is prob not from chelation, taking vit C alone doesn't do this, other chelators don't do this, Ik I don't have stuff like mercury left in me at all). Even 3 mg of manganese or magnesium from the same manufacturer that TEI uses will give me very bad pain, and it doesn't feel like it's from chelation. Vit b5 and folate etc in the recommended doses don't feel safe either.

I am looking for a safer supplemental magnesium source, and maybe just will use high manganese foods, and keep using beef and fish for zinc and selenium. I had almond butter yesterday and that may have benefited me a lot later in the day.

I absolutely agree that TEI knows the imbalances better than anyone else, and they know how to fix them, but I don't think I can handle their supplement regimen. I think a lot of these things are physically painful not because they are chelating or detoxing (which I would happily endure), but because they are inherently harmful to the bodies of some sick people, such as myself, and they are just doing unnecessary damage. This is why if someone knows of compounds that chelate calcium, I would love for them to share it with me! That could fix me very quickly, and it is in line with what has cured me before of this type of problem (mineral toxicity).
 
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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
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#37
In the last several days my body seems to have been going through a significant change in chemistry.

My breathing rate / metabolism has increased, as has my production of androgens, cortisol, etc. So my baseline feels way better, and I am walking faster with lots of confidence, talking more quickly, more socially adept in person, etc. Breathing is way faster, actually.

My urine this whole time has become consistently acidic. My bacterial infections seem to be not active at all now, because of what I did last week and prob b/c of the pH change. So I guess my body has become more acidic for the moment, and so now viruses I've had for a while are becoming active.

In line with this, I've been getting a new type of pain during this time. It's intense or sharp only sometimes, and mostly comes every now and then at random, at any part of my body. It's not what my bacterial infections felt like. It also gave me a new type of tinnitus, that sounds different from the type I've had before.It also gives me a feeling like I'd be shedding hair if my estrogen weren't 0. I think this is a virus.

The most worrisome thing is that I've started getting this consistent pain in this one small area on the left side of my abdomen. And when I cough or or push on it with an adjacent muscle even slightly, it hurts very badly. And there's also another in location in my right side, and another in a spot in my arm. From the areas they are it might be in the kidneys or adrenals (but these don't feel like kidney stones- this is prob from a pathogen). I am worried that this might be a tumor / cancer developing.

Remember that my copper and iron use are extremely low, my adrenal function is terrible. Even though in other ways I’m very healthy, these things totally suppress parts of the immune system, so it’s like I’m 14 years old in some ways and 100 years old in others. So we could consider me to be immune-suppressed, and hence the simultaneous viral/bacterial infection that Helen talks about causing cancer is very plausible.

Where did this recent increase in metabolism and breathing come from? I have been eating a lot of beef (zinc, selenium), so it could be that, but I've also been chelating with vit C and IP-6 (I'm not using ALA anymore). So I think it's more likely to be from chelation removing metals that suppress metabolism, and so potassium can go up. But my body still can't raise sodium and allow estrogen to be produced because it remains too high in calcium.



Is this a case where I want to keep metabolism suppressed for now? Raising metabolism/respiration creates more acidic waste products (lactic acid even?) that my body dumps in urine, puts pressure on glutathione, so body becomes more acidic and glutathione is lowered. This controls bacterial infections somewhat, but now viruses can go crazy?

So do I want to avoid zinc for now, keep respiration lower? But if chelation (vit C (from TEI), IP-6) is doing this, then I don’t really have a choice but to push through with it all, do I? And I'll actually want to replenish zinc, mag, etc (from food alone, obviously) because they're being lowered by this.

Should I aim to keep oxidation artificially suppressed for now, to preserve glutathione to control the virus? How would I suppress it safely? These chelators remove zinc but I still feel like I may still be high in it (and this actually makes me mostly feel good besides the pain b/c of metabolism increase, but this may be dangerous), but maybe they are still lowering it a lot and I'm just breathing faster because chelation is removing metals that suppressed my oxidation rate..

If these are cancers developing, what can I do for now to keep them from spreading rapidly? I'm getting a perisistent pain on a small part of my leg now. These really are occuring all over, even though the one on my left side is the worst and most sensitive to any movement or slight muscular pressure on it.

Are oregano oil or olive leaf good for cases like these, or could they be dangerous?



My temps actually seem to have become a bit lower during this time, even tho my breathing is faster. Maybe that is chelation lowering some cofactor mineral I need, or maybe it is the virus (if that's what it is) skewing things- bruschi said in a post that pathogens can cause deficiencies, in his experience. Maybe that's what's happening.

I continue to be sick every day without end- making plenty of mucus in my throat and sinuses tat everyoen aorudn me can hear when I cough (though I'm not choking on it or anything, it's like someone having a cold except it never ends lol). There is no fever, but my body might not have that ability right now even though it wants to.

Estrogen remains at 0. Only calcium chelation will fix that, and once it does my immune system will come back and I'll be fine. The problem is getting there.


Interestingly, my teeth seem to be stronger and more mineralized compare to a week or two ago, when I was actually worried about them decaying again. IP-6 supposedly decalcifies the soft tissues and moves it to bones, somehow, so maybe that is what happened. And I should just keep pushing through with it since gettign out of a mineral toxicity in my experience isn't a gradual process, it only happens all at once when you cross below the line of toxicity. I'm not there yet. This is unless the IP-6, which contains calcium, is just providing new bound calcium to my teeth, but people have said anecdotally that they think it lowered their body calcium despite containing calcium itself.

But I really do need to be careful about chelating even with these doses that most people use casually, because my body seems to get depleted of minerals way more quickly than others do (my first experience with DMSA was just 2g but it removed everything).

I will try to acquire a pure inositol supplement, so I can use that with IP-6 to make calcium chelation more effective and faster. But I will need to be cautious, and make sure to replete other minerals like mag and probbaly zinc unless you guys think it is dangerous for me rn by raising metabolism too much with these ifnections).

So magnesium zinc potassium sodium maybe manganese maybe a little molybdenum. Maybe selenium. And all from food, no mineral supplements. Eat these to replenish while I chelate- the just 500 mg doses of chelators can actually huge for me even though they are fine for other people, so depletion is a real thing to worry about.
 

Bankai900

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2019
327
142
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29
Poland
#38
Dude I'm really drunk and probably just a person who likes to keep stuff simple, but your hairtest shows barely above minimum range of calcium, I don't even get it man. You're like low in EVERYTHING, a bit more and you'll be in 4 lows and good luck getting out of that lol.
Do a damn waterfast for 2 weeks and fix your gut with all this shit u've been doing, give your body a damn break man. Stop the damn inflammation first and let your body cool down and repair. You talk about 2g calcium like it's much just WHAT the hell. People who barely eat dairy and cheese get such amounts in lol. People who like cheese and dairy prob 10fold for decades. I belive your body is more fucked from the things you try to do, but same time I don't belive that some ala or some zinc or vit c will chelate shit. Definitely not in hours or days.
And why u talk about 0 estro, you have bloods? Are u impotent, dried out?? Take dat B8 for a bit if you're that worried about calcium, but I'd be more worried about all these deficiencies you have. You're in such a hurry and yet 3 weeks passed already, how many weeks do you think this might take? Also you should keep in mind for how many weeks your playing around might potentially set you back. At least according to your test you're not toxic in anything, and seriously 2g of calcium a day for 30 days from natural sources would barely touch that graph lol
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#40
Dude I'm really drunk and probably just a person who likes to keep stuff simple, but your hairtest shows barely above minimum range of calcium, I don't even get it man. You're like low in EVERYTHING, a bit more and you'll be in 4 lows and good luck getting out of that lol.
Do a damn waterfast for 2 weeks and fix your gut with all this shit u've been doing, give your body a damn break man. Stop the damn inflammation first and let your body cool down and repair. You talk about 2g calcium like it's much just WHAT the hell. People who barely eat dairy and cheese get such amounts in lol. People who like cheese and dairy prob 10fold for decades. I belive your body is more fucked from the things you try to do, but same time I don't belive that some ala or some zinc or vit c will chelate shit. Definitely not in hours or days.
And why u talk about 0 estro, you have bloods? Are u impotent, dried out?? Take dat B8 for a bit if you're that worried about calcium, but I'd be more worried about all these deficiencies you have. You're in such a hurry and yet 3 weeks passed already, how many weeks do you think this might take? Also you should keep in mind for how many weeks your playing around might potentially set you back. At least according to your test you're not toxic in anything, and seriously 2g of calcium a day for 30 days from natural sources would barely touch that graph lol
You say you don't believe ALA or vit C could cure me that fast, but they have before. On several different occasions now. The only reason they aren't so fast-acting right now is the amount of the problem mineral I have to get rid of is so high. It might seem hard to believe, and it is even when it happens to you firsthand, but that is what happens. The body turns on things again instantly once the mineral gets below the toxic level.

Chelation has not screwed my body I'm pretty sure, except at first in september october november. I've gotten a good handle on things and keeping them roughly in balance, though there's still some guesswork involved. So I try to be cautious with it. That's why I've stopped using ALA. It doesn't seem to get rid of calcium efficiently enough, so taking a bunch of it will just deplete me of other stuff. The fact that I don't have a mercury problem anymore makes this all so much easier, because chelation doesn't destroy my cells with every dose. So the only issue with chelation is risk of lowering other minerals too much, and I am keeping track of them all as best I can to stay in balance.


I'm interested to learn more about the water fasting. I had read here that fasting is not good for fast oxidizers, which it said I had become on the new test and also I feel like I am now (breathing rate is way faster this week, and production of some hormones is very good), and Helen said in a post that fasting is not good when you have viral infections, which my body seems possibly to have switched to in last several days from increased metabolism increasing acidity. He said fasting multiplied his viral tumors a ton, and my body seems to be benefiting a lot from eating lots of animal foods atm, so I'm not sure that I should do that or not at this stage. But if you have reason to disagree I'd love to hear it and consider it, maybe it could help me a lot.

I think the protein and butter and minerals I've been eating are working well for keeping my gut lining relatively intact (compared to the first week of this month when all hell broke loose for a week), and the main issue is getting from 1 bm a day to 3 or so, which I think will happen if I raise my sodium (adrenals) on hair test just a moderate amount. The only way to do that for me is to remove the calcium, and then sodium will go up again and my gut will move so quickly, and the gut lining can become fully renewed since copper will be usable again. But I guess the gut protocol here might be good for me for now?

The inflammation almost all comes from my infections, and from whenever I try the supps TEI wants me to take lol. B vits, citrus flavonoids, synthetic mineral supps, all of these give me bad pain or tingling and stuff. And I don't think this is from the detox or chelation they are supposed to be for. The chelators I use myself don't make me feel like that, they feel safe and clean in how they work. I think I could accomplish the same as TEI right now through chelation, since I know my imbalance (I think they know it too, but I just can't take many of their supplements). And then with calcium gone most things will work again, and I can stick roughly to TEI from there to stay in balance indefinitely, but never take any supplements again lol (except electrolytes maybe).

So I haven't been taking many things at all for like well over a month now. People say I'm doing all these things that are messing me up, but I'm actually not. Mostly I take potassium, sometimes lecithin, often Vit C, or a chelator, sometimes digestive enzymes or malic acid or something to kill bacteria. The rest I get from food.



Taking in 2x the RDA for minerals can make you toxic in them pretty quickly, even in just weeks, if you are already kind of high in them. Early last year I got toxic in zinc from eating beef for just a few weeks. I still had lots of calcium in me from milk drinking and eggshell supplementation earlier that year, and when I ate all the cheese I had been depleted of minerals by DMSA so my body and my calcium metabolism weren't working. So all this made me uniquely vulnerable to getting toxic from that- it's not the same as people who eat dairy for decades (although many of them do get similar diseases and problems from it).

In my hairtests you can actually see the progression of calcium poisoning, how it rises way up and makes the calcium ratios so bad, and also lowers iron and copper becuase it blocks their (estro-dependent) use. Like just look at the ratios in the last test, calcium is so compared to other things.

I don't have bloods for hormones, but I've had the many different symptoms of low estro for months, and it is reflected in the ever-lower copper and iron on my hairtest even though I know I have lots of each in my body. Copper and iron build up in the organs when estrogen is low.



I'm not actually low in all minerals, the hair test indicates that their use was blocked. Of the other minerals that are low, some of that was genuine low levels from chelation, which I've done a lot for since then (this test was from a sample from mid-december, remember. I've taken in lots more zinc manganese potassium selenium etc in the last month and I've felt huge benefits from that), and some like molybdenum copper iron are not actually low in my body, they just aren't being used.

Calcium, is low, but given the pattern of how much I ate at what times and how my symptoms got way worse as I did that, and how it seems to match everything getting and remaining worse, I think calcium is low here due to having way too much calcium. I think calcium poisoning alone can send people (eg Ray Peat) into 4 lows. Also for this HTMA I was toxic in copper and maybe iron for much of the time it covered as well, so those made things even worse. With chelation and taking in the minerals I actually am low in, I've improved that since then.

I think if I did a hair test now it would look somewhat better, and would be more like 2-3 low electrolytes rather than 4 (my potassium/thyroid feels like it has gone up, maybe mag or calcium a bit too, sodium still would be extremely low my adrenals are barely working). I dont feel like I'm approaching burnout for instance. It's like 3/4 of my body works great, and the other 1/4 doesn't work at all. And the infections that enables make me feel way worse off than I actually am.



These 3 weeks haven't just passed by. They've been unbelievably difficult. Terrible pain for days from infections, etc. And right now I'm worried I'm getting tumors. I have to hurry both b/c there's lots I need to accomplish in my life in the next year, and because the longer I wait with my immune system like this the greater the risk I'll die or get permanent organ damage or something.

It's not like I have PFS where it will by default take years to fix for most. My body was balanced just a few months ago. These problems were only created over the course of one month. And not from a drug messing with receptors or epigenetics, afaik, but just by getting depleted of some minerals (no longer a problem a far as I can tell. I've eaten all the minerals since then), and by getting too much calcium, copper, and iron while I was in this depleted state.

People say you can't fix something like this quickly, but I have fixed very similar problems in the past almost instantly., using chelation. The only difference here is that there is just so much calcium I have to get rid of. So this is why I think I can be healed quickly and am trying for it. The same stuff that worked for me so well before multiple times, just this time it is the toughest case due to the quantity I have to remove.

Try some taurine
I have been using taurine occasionally in lowish amounts. It might be helping a little bit, but no massive results.


Thank you guys for responding! I like it when people do this, I find it relaxing and therapeutic to write out responses to people's comments.


Today I tried forcing huge sympathetic activity, it got my temps up and even got me sweating a good amount (but no adrenaline/scalp itch), may have really acidified my body for a little bit and caused a bacterial dieoff (it felt like it- the same sensations) and increased viral activity briefly. Hopefully that will help remove or solubilize a little more calcium. I took some IP-6 last night (~500 mg). I continue to just get everything from food, until I find something that works to remove calcium really well.

This new type of pain (that I think is a virus) is pretty annoying and concerning still. I do feel better rn overall cause my metabolism is up, but maybe that's not a good thing in the short term. I'm not sure.
 
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