Shuddering’s Log: Healing from Post-DMSA syndrome (chronic low copper):

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#1
Hello Everyone,

For the past few months I have been dealing with a very serious health problem- an inability to use copper. My body does not appear to be making estrogen (or ceruloplasmin, I’m not sure which), and I am here to ask for everyone’s help in restoring it, so I can get my life back.

My original health problems all stemmed from mercury. I was content to get rid of it slowly, but a series of health crises that developed over the summer put me in danger and forced me to start chelating mercury on a very accelerated schedule, to avoid the risk of my body getting stuck and never recovering. I barely just managed to pull off removing most of the mercury in my body in just 3 months (compared to the 1 year+ that it would have taken me using traditional methods), and escaped catastrophe.

However, one of the things that this required was that I use DMSA. I used it for the first time in September, using nearly 2 grams over several days, taken in smaller doses every 4 hours, alongside ALA. This greatly lowered my mercury, but DMSA seems to be so powerful that it depleted me heavily of other minerals.

I ended up several days after finishing the round with symptoms of low copper- anemia, losing bilirubin in urine, orange stools, etc, which I was all able to correct over several days by eating a bunch of liver, and taking some copper and iron and manganese supplements. Although this put me out of immediate danger, I did not regain various bodily functions I had lost (hormone production, bile production, hair loss (suppressed by low E2), peristalsis, memory recall and cognitive functions, Sympathetic Nervous System Function, liver function (a bit of yellowish discoloration on my skin and in the corners of my eyes), immune function (my tongue remains coated), collagen production (as seen in the skin), thyroid function (body temps, overall energy)) and had become unable to handle vitamin A compounds in food. In the months since then, these problems have mostly not been fixed.

After this was when I screwed up. In my desperation (and state of impaired cognition, etc, resulting from this), in late September I ended up eating over a pound and a half of beef liver, alongside taking substantial amounts of iron from supplements, and for 3 days took 20 mg of copper a day from supplements. I was fooled into thinking this was a good idea by the experience of Freddd on PhoenixRising restoring his copper status using such high dosages, and by the fact that taking copper seemed to initially improve my low copper symptoms (I now know, of course, that this is very wrong, and was a very stupid and destructive thing to do, as I probably made myself copper toxic by doing this).

My final mistake was spending the month of October eating large amounts of calcium (1-2g/day) from cheese every day, stopping at the start of November when I realized that it was probably slowing me down a great deal and killing me.

Throughout October I took more chelators to undo my error, (including another 2g or so of DMSA to undo the copper toxicity I had probably induced). In early November I got more of certain minerals in my diet and got some improvement (return of bile production, return of some hormones and catecholamines a little bit, etc), but consuming a bit of high-copper food as an experiment caused my improvements to disappear.

In mid-November I took yet another 2g or so of DMSA in 2 doses a week apart (just about all of my mercury was gone by then), and this restored my body functions lost by taking in more copper at the beginning of that month (bile flow, sweating, dopamine, etc). It even for a couple of weeks seemed to increase my sympathetic nervous system, adrenaline, ability to sweat, and estrogen a little bit. It was a noticeable and real, but not massive improvement.

Fixated on removing the calcium I had taken in, I continued to chelate through the end of November and early December, using Malic Acid, ALA, NAC, algin, a high protein intake, and IP-6.

My improvements in the SNS and LH side of things went away during this time with more chelation, though my production of cortisol and then progesterone seemed to substantially increase.

What I am wondering is if I have through more than 2 months of chelation lowered every mineral- emptied my cells of minerals of almost all types- and now all that remains is to replenish them in a particular order. Is this too much to assume? Would taking 4 g total of DMSA in October and November (this is not counting the 2g I took in September, before I took in too much Cu, Fe, and Ca), and many grams of NAC, many days of a high intake of protein, many grams of malic acid, a few grams of IP-6, multiple grams of ALA, some EDTA, charcoal, lots of algin, several grams of vitamin C (and much more in diet), have the end effect of bringing my cellular minerals to nothing? Or is there likely still too much copper or iron or calcium?

If so, what is the proper sequence to restore them? Which minerals should I take in which order?

I don’t know at this point how much calcium is in my cells (I still have calcium deposits on my skin, but this is different from intracellular calcium, is it not?).

I don’t know if I am copper toxic or deficient overall, and whether or not I am absorbing copper well. I have leaky gut, but I also have taken in lots of molybdenum, vit C, and zinc in the last couple of weeks, and am very concerned about both possibilities (that I have hidden copper toxicity and have to get it out, or that I have difficulty absorbing copper now). But I also took in at least 30 mg of copper total in the last few weeks from food. Is this being absorbed, and is it making me copper toxic again and keeping my enzymes suppressed? Or are zinc etc blocking it from absorption?

In late November, I for days had a return of some symptoms of estrogen, and adrenaline, and SNS, and hairloss, all coming back a bit, while I was chelating with DMSA and for some time after. But with taking about a gram of NAC a day for a week or more, and some more chelation with IP-6 etc, by early december this was gone, and I was feeling worse again.

Shortly after that, while dealing with an intestinal bacterial infection, I went into a period of what felt like constantly high cortisol (I had been supplementing some zinc, but not a huge amount, to replenish). After days of eating lots of protein (and phosphorous) from meat, this turned into what felt like constant high progesterone (a much more positive feeling). My last time chelating was at this point- I used a couple of grams of ALA. I have stopped all chelating now, hopefully for good. Around the time I was eating lots of protein this early December and my body transitioned from cortisol into progesterone, I also consumed as a test some extra copper from food (totaling 12-15 mg) which raised my temps and energy for a while, but I fear was a mistake. My temps are lower now, and I have no idea what my true copper levels are. I consumed in the last week another 10 mg or more of copper from food, beyond the normal amount. It does not seem to have helped at all, which could be because I am still absorbing it and am still on the upper edge of the safe range for total body copper levels and just a little bit will push me back into toxicity.

I then consumed foods high in manganese, and I felt this lower my progesterone, and make me more androgenic (my voice got noticeably deeper within 20 minutes of eating my first high manganese meal, this maybe a week and half ago). From here I consumed more mineral- heavy foods (chocolate, buckwheat, peas, beans, beef etc).

This whole time, for weeks, I ate plenty of foods high in vitamin C and potassium.

Two nights ago I got an increase in inflammation (tinnitus, etc), and a couple random pain throughout my body, abut also constantly higher temps and return of hairloss feeling on my scalp, from consuming calcium for the first time in a while. It lasted all night and all morning the next day, but then it went away. when I tried eating some cheese later that next day, It did the same, except the feeling on my scalp was reduced compared to the day before (so does this indicate calcium is not helping me, and I can’t use it?), and I had more pains throughout my body at random after the meal. Is this calcium clumping together and forming deposits? If this is the case, what does it say about my current body chemistry? That I have high cortisol / 3bhsd again? I certainly have felt high-ish cortisol in the last couple of days, but I don’t know if this is improvement or not. After this brief experiment I am stopping calcium consumption again.

I’ve taken and consumed selenium a lot throughout the last couple weeks, and each time it raises my temps for a little bit then the effect goes away. I don’t want to take anymore for fear it will crash me.

I am wondering if manganese causes actual loss of zinc and magnesium from the body or just puts them into storage. Also, does molybdenum actually fix copper toxicity, or just make copper biounavailable? Has eating lots of molybdenum the last month screwed me up further?


What accounts for the copper deficiency that DMSA causes? It does directly deplete a lot of copper (see Figure 2 in the link: http://www.transbiomedicine.com/tra...r-of-stem-progenitor-cells-in-circulation.pdf ), but taking copper right after it happened to me didn’t fix it. Can we assume the nature of the problem is solely that it depletes other minerals needed for copper use as well- like zinc, or selenium, or magnesium or potassium, etc? And that that’s the entire problem and that it doesn’t do far deeper damage the way that drugs like finasteride do?

For example, for over a week after eating liver to fix my anemia resulting from DMSA, I got extreme inflammation from vitamin A toxicity, and this continued for well over 2 months after, whenever I ate vitamin A foods. Could this have indicated zinc deficiency as the problem (no RBP)? Cutler recommended people supplement ridiculous amounts of zinc every day, so this might be why some people took DMSA many times without their health being destroyed like mine has.

What minerals should I have taken after DMSA, and in what amounts and orders, to fix myself?

What mineral should I take now, after 3 months of chelating to deal with what I think were (are?) calcium, iron, and copper toxicity?

My liver is still making bile it seems, and has continuously since mid-November when I chelated for the final time with DMSA (2g) and my bile production was restored (I assume an excess of either copper or iron or calcium was corrected by this, and had been previously blocking bile production and other functions). This was also when my estrogen, SNS, ventilation, etc seemed to recover a bit, but these abilities now have been lost I did chelate quite a bit more since then, and I took in various minerals from diet, so that changed my balance a lot no doubt- my hormone production went from being centered on adrenaline (but only weakly) to cortisol, to progesterone, to some androgen (I don’t know the difference between test and DHT based on symptoms). Now I am unsure where my body is at. 3bhsd still seems lowered (but not to 0) after consuming manganese earlier this week (but now possibly rising again as cortisol), bit since then I also took in lots more magnesium, selenium, phosphorous, molybdenum, some zinc, some copper, some methyl b12, and now finally some calcium.

I continue to have darkened skin, a coated tongue, and yellow discoloration and red veins in the corners of my eyes, though my bile does seem to be flowing properly (I guess these are just typical low copper symptoms) and my peristalsis is ok (just over a month ago it was far worse), and my stomach acid production feels to be decent (but should be a lot higher), as does cortisol production. Despite taking in more magnesium and zinc in the last couple of weeks, the manganese seemed to lower my 3bhsd quite noticeably. Is this a good thing? Does it mean I’m only missing one or a few more things now?

My adrenaline production / sympathetic nervous system all are very low right now. Am I missing some mineral, or is an excess of another blocking it (if so, the 3 prime suspects are Fe, Cu, or Ca)? I have taken selenium and protein recently for glutathione, and b12, phosphorous, etc for methylation, so the problem does not seem to be with any of those (or is something blocking methylation?). The increases in my sensitivity to dairy estrogens in the last few days that appeared a couple of times only to regress again for some reason I do not know might show that I am close to getting this all back, however? Or am I wrong? And remember I had increasing SNS and estrogen for a bit in the second half of November, after which hey disappeared with more chelation, so am I just missing some remaining mineral or something? Am I this close to being healed?

I don’t know still if my calcium, copper, or iron are too high or toxic, or are actually low. This is what concerns me the most. If I chelated the excess of each mineral out already, then all I have to do is take in the other needed minerals lost this way in the right order, but if I’m still toxic in some mineral (it would probably be in one of these 3), I will have to get rid of that instead, or taking ti would really screw me up, and I don’t want to have to make myself spend even more time fixing this.

Were the chelator doses I used over a couple of months, and the high manganese and zinc foods I ate more recently, enough to remove from my cells the 30-50 excess grams of calcium I stupidly took in in October (though I’m sure not all of that was absorbed- but if cortisol were suppressed during that month as I think it may have been, then maybe its absorption wasn’t inhibited)?

Did taking in the extra copper more recently screw me up?
An issue with my diet recently has been that it continues to be high in iron.

What should I do now? I am not sure if consuming calcium again for the last couple of days is actually improving me or not. It did seem to restore my sensitivity to the estrogens in butter, so does that indicate it is a missing piece without which my body will not make estrogen receptors sensitive? Should I keep restricting calcium in diet and just sunbathe for vitamin D instead, which I have not done in a while, and since I know I have calcium in deposits in my body?
(The above paragraph was written last night, since then I have had my improvement in sensitivity to dairy estrogens mostly go away again, and got the same pains throughout my body all day today (I assume this is calcification. What does this tell us?) I’ve stopped calcium consumption again).


Calcium the last 2 days causes big increase in tinnitus, raises blood pressure, causes pains throughout body, and possibly returns hair loss and makes the estrogens in butter cause damage to my cells again (liver detox has been impaired in me since early this year when I foolishly drank too much milk, this is when my hair loss started as well. As a slow this whole time, would zinc + manganese (after ceruloplasmin is restored) fix this, and also restore my liver detox abilities? I appear to be completely intolerant to alcohol, even small amount of any PUFA oil gives me bad pain, I feel damage from estrogens in butter/dairy (but only when my estrogen receptors are sensitized, otherwise I feel nothing when I eat them- what do I need to do to permanently re-sensitize estrogen receptors again? I’ve felt a slight improvement yet again here in the last few days, after taking in many minerals from food, but which minerals do you think will do that? And will fixing my mineral imbalance naturally and immediately fix my destroyed liver detox ability? It has been impaired since early his year when I foolishly drank too much milk- this was when my hairloss and elevated liver enzymes started. )

I know ALA chelates magnesium, so I replenished it somewhat in the last week, but magnesium does not appear to be helping (or maybe it is, but slowly?). What is needed to make it usable?

Obviously, my rambling here is not enough to fully identify my body’s current imbalance. But hopefully adding a hair test to this information will do the trick. Last week, right before eating lots of manganese, and right after I did chelation for the last time with ALA and IP6, I sent in a hair sample for another HTMA. My last one was done in late October, and I can post both of them here as soon as I get the results of the new one.

Will a hair test from last week be enough to figure out the nature of the remaining imbalance in my body, or will I need blood tests as well? If so, which ones, and how can I get them without going through a doctor? Should I just do nutreval?

I would prefer not to go on TEI if possible, because I know the sequence of events from the last few months, and I was briefly healed a few months ago (except for some remaining mercury in me at the time that is now gone), so I know that victory is within reach. Without estrogen, my ability to be productive and to live my life is also extremely hampered, and if it takes more than 3 months or so to fix me it could have very harmful effects on my life, due to my decreased productivity and impaired learning and memory. I fear TEI would take too long, whereas I bet @Helen (Please? I am sure you have lots of others things to do, but if you cured me here I would be forever grateful and in your debt, and this thread would serve as valuable information for others- and could potentially save multiple lives in the years to come. Info on the dangers of DMSA is very hard to come by, and this could change that) could figure it out from the information I gave here and the incoming htma results.

Also, I have done 2 HTMAs with TEI already, and in neither case did I follow their protocol, and in both cases I did lots of chelation afterwards, which they wouldn’t know about, so their ability to help me is probably very screwed up now anyways.

I am very confident that I am close to becoming balanced and healthy. I did achieve this ever so briefly this fall, until a crisis made it worse again and forced me to take DMSA. My original problems stemmed almost entirely from Mercury, and I have fixed that entirely now, far ahead of schedule. My only problem now is this new devastating mineral imbalance that is only 3 months old now. It surely can’t take long to fix it given the right information, no?

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated! I am optimistic but also desperate and weary. Every day brings more pain, and my body can't survive forever like this.
 

opiath

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
89
97
18
Bulgaria
#2
That's a pretty detailed post you've made.
I think it will be hard for most people here to analyze it completely and give you some advice.
You seem to have a solid understanding of things though. I'm sure you'll get better in time.

What I'd like to say is that all of the minerals you took like zinc, manganese, copper, iron, calcium & magnesium have some things in common.
They have immediate effects that happen the same day you take them and they also have some lagging effect that manifests over time.
So if you judge their effect by the way you feel on first 1-2 days you will have a hard time balancing them out.
Manganese/Zinc for example induce changes in PH system pretty fast and over time they change hormone levels, receptors and sensitivity.
If you take calcium from supplements or diet during these short-term and long-term changes you can rapidly increase intracellular calcium levels and then once zinc and manganese stop changing your system this calcium with take a really long time to balance out. Like weeks.
And when it comes to copper chelation this is valid also.
Since copper retains calcium when you chelate it out the calcium is often stuck there until you refill with other minerals and even then it still takes a lot of time to normalize.

You'll be fine. Just don't do stupid things like eating pounds and pounds of liver or taking grams of minerals at the same time.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#3
That's a pretty detailed post you've made.
I think it will be hard for most people here to analyze it completely and give you some advice.
You seem to have a solid understanding of things though. I'm sure you'll get better in time.

What I'd like to say is that all of the minerals you took like zinc, manganese, copper, iron, calcium & magnesium have some things in common.
They have immediate effects that happen the same day you take them and they also have some lagging effect that manifests over time.
So if you judge their effect by the way you feel on first 1-2 days you will have a hard time balancing them out.
Manganese/Zinc for example induce changes in PH system pretty fast and over time they change hormone levels, receptors and sensitivity.
If you take calcium from supplements or diet during these short-term and long-term changes you can rapidly increase intracellular calcium levels and then once zinc and manganese stop changing your system this calcium with take a really long time to balance out. Like weeks.
And when it comes to copper chelation this is valid also.
Since copper retains calcium when you chelate it out the calcium is often stuck there until you refill with other minerals and even then it still takes a lot of time to normalize.

You'll be fine. Just don't do stupid things like eating pounds and pounds of liver or taking grams of minerals at the same time.

Thank you for the response!

You are right about the length of the original post. Here is an abbreviated version, while the longer version above can be consulted for more details:

I found out this year that I had mercury poisoning. I successfully chelated out the mercury using several substances. One of them, DMSA, seemed to deplete me of lots of other (nutritionally essential) minerals, and left me with low estrogen/inability to use copper.

When this happened (September), I foolishly took in huge amounts of copper, iron, and calcium, probably making myself toxic in each one, and making my recovery take much longer than it needed to.

In the months since then, I have taken massive doses of chelators in order to correct these 3 new toxicities, while consuming lots of other minerals, to replenish those that are lost. This further chelation restored some body functions that had been lost after poisoning myself with Cu, Fe, and Ca, such as bile production, some peristalsis, some stomach acid production (this still feels kind of weak, however. It may have gone lower again with progesterone and cortisol after eating manganese semi-recently), some hormone production (I think cortisol, progesterone, and DHT).

Meanwhile, my estrogen, adrenaline, sweat production, remain basically at 0. They did rise briefly a little bit a couple of times in the last few days, possibly in response to calcium, but then this went away, and further calcium seemed to make me worse, so I am back to restricting calcium from my diet again. These hormones also seemed to rise a bit in late November after I used DMSA again (they returned alongside bile production, but they went away in the following weeks after further chelation). The brief slight return of my sympathetic nervous system and estrogen in late november and again very briefly in the last few days gives me hope that their full restoration is not far off -despite their having gone back to 0- if you guys can help me figure out what to do, which will be easier when I get my new HTMA results back soon.

I am done taking chelators for now, after taking large amounts of them during the last few months, and have recently focused only on replenishing my mineral stores (getting lots of molybdenum, zinc, selenium, potassium, magnesium, manganese, from diet).

My 3 big questions at the moment are the following:
What minerals must I take, and in what sequence and schedule?
Am I still toxic in Iron, Copper, or Calcium, or have I likely depleted myself of them from huge chelator doses taken for this purpose over the past 3 months?
Am I absorbing copper from my diet or not? I have taken in lots of molybdenum and zinc and vitamin C, from my diet recently, and a couple times in November and December I tested eating high copper foods again (to the tune of an extra 20mg-30mg of copper eaten this way total). I don't know if zinc has blocked copper from being absorbed, or if I still absorb it, or if I'm high or low in copper in my body, and if this copper I took in more recently has been a good idea and replenished low levels induced by chelation or if chelation was not this effective and I have just made myself copper toxic again. I don't know if molybdenum and vit C actually get rid of copper from the body or just push it out of cells or make it less bioavailable while it still builds up in liver, brain, etc.
(end of summary)







At this time:

I remain optimistic, but I don't know what my next step should be. My body is just not working in lots of ways. All sorts of foods cause me pain in peripheral regions that never did before this year, so I am restricted to relatively few foods. My memory, emotions, productivity, hormonal function, are all pretty terrible. If I ate like most people right now (high PUFAs, etc), I would probably now be dead. My body even as is has taken so much damage in this time from vitamin A compounds in food, from bacterial infections, from low SODs/Glut, etc. My sclera show the yellow discoloration and and reddened veins of elevated liver enzymes. My tongue is stll coated, my liver detox function is gone (alcohol intolerance, vulnerable to all sorts of food compounds that those around me can handle just fine, even trying some bottled water tonight put me in pain).

My suppressed immune system has left me vulnerable to infections. I had a gut infection that I believe to be C diff or some relative of it, and the pain that calcium triggered in me starting a few days ago may be from that (c diff spores need calcium to germinate- taking algin, etc to clear calcium and other metals from my gut has possibly been very helpful in fighting this- so have nondairy probiotic yogurts with l acidophilus, b bulgaricus, etc (but some strains in probiotic products with more strains caused a new type of autoimmune symptoms in me- constant pain and rignging in ears, I think the offending strain here for the immune suppressed may be l casei, but possibly even L acidophilus as well - I mention this note as a warning to others with poor immune function to avoid this mistake. I fixed this probiotic-induced disaster with raw carrots, coconut oil, apple cider vinegar, and lots of butter)), or from cortisol-induced calcification, I'm not sure. I took some activated charcoal and some acid-producting bacteria in the last couple of days to deal with the c diff outbreak if this is what it was. This one was bad, but the episode I experienced in late November and early December (triggered by the restoration of my bile production, which this bacterium uses as a signal to activate from its spore form) was far worse- it put me in so much pain, but I eventually dealt with it using the measures above.

It's the chronic pain and impaired brain function and energy that make this process difficult, but given that I survived the last few months with my psyche and will to live intact, despite tremendous difficulty and adversity, and demoralizingly high amounts of damage to my body (from vit A, infections, low antioxidants etc), I am confident about the remainder of the process if we can identify the nature of my remaining imbalance and thus what to do to fix it.

I did get a lot more zinc in the last few days (from beef, turkey, sardines, trout, pumpkin seeds), and this may be why my briefly rising estrogen symptoms from 2-3 days ago have gone away again (or it could be caused by something completely different, I don't know). Could zinc at this point be lowering my total body copper levels by substantial amounts and making them low, or just displacing my "deployed" copper, or suppressing estrogen by changing the pH or somehow suppressing metabolism?

Would sunbathing be a good or bad idea right now? I have eaten lots of phosphorous and little calcium in recent weeks.

Am I right to think that using my sensitivity to the hormones in butter is a good measure of my body turning on estrogen receptors? Why do you think this started to happen again a few days ago, before going away again? Is there a mineral I should take that will increase this effect at this point?

Have I been getting the wrong form of selenium? I've mostly been using brazil nuts, sardines, meat, whatever amount is in plant foods, and a selenium yeast supplement (selenomethionine) to replenish what I probably lost through chelation. Usually selenium increases body temperature at first for an hour or two and then the effect goes away. Sodium selenite, even in smaller amounts, seems to be toxic in some way to me.

I agree that I can beat this, but I am not ready to assume that things will just normalize on their own, since I have seen many cases on forums where people have low ceruloplasmin for years, and it never gets better. They probably keep getting more and more toxic in copper and whatever else they have too much of, until they die. I am sure TEI could fix them, and could fix me, but I want to first try for any possibility of healing myself in just a few months rather than years- as I need to get my life back together. Also, my being briefly healed in August, before the DMSA, with INSANE energy and hormones due to just somewhat lowered mercury, makes me think I can't be far off. Even a couple of weeks after DMSA, in early October, my adrenaline production was actually pretty good and it let me walk insanely fast without much exertion- faster than anyone around me on the street, despite my not having particularly large or strong legs. My testosterone also seemed to be increasing at this time. This ability was lost soon after from eating lots of calcium during October, and was restored for a bit (but not quite as strong) in mid-late November, and was reduced again after that from further chelation.
 

manu

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2017
225
173
43
Europe
#4
Sorry I haven't read through it all.
I will just list some ideas which popped up in my head:
1) transdermal absorption of minerals seems to be better regulated. Therefore you could try to take baths in mineral rich water e.g. Sea salt or maybe even manually enrich this water with microminerals by your choice (you need to habe these in water-soluble form obviously).

2) If you are indeed deficient in several minerals I would think that your body will upregulate absorption of those. So maybe just go on a balanced 100% RDA of everything diet (no 1000% copper or zinc etc).

3) Do a hair test even if you don't want to follow the protocol.
Just to see deficiency or toxicity of copper etc.
I would think any toxicity which was induced recently should show up and won't be hidden under additional regulational layers. Same for deficiency.

Good luck
 
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tanedout

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2017
605
364
63
#5
How are you concluding that you're deficient or toxic in specific minerals? From blood tests or hair analysis?

Have you tried ox bile, TUDCA or UDCA for bile flow? This is a major issue for me (I also don't sweat, and can't tolerate fats), but taking ox bile and TUDCA definitely helps. Very bitter herbs like tribulus also seem to stimulate bile flow.

I'm currently taking a very broad multi vitamin/mineral to try and build up minerals and also potentially get B2 working again (see the B2 thread).
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
11
18
#6
@tanedout I am making educated estimates of levels of different minerals based on my intake of them recently and on the amount of specific chelators I took (but I am done chelating now). I have tried TUDCA, and it may have helped some, but it is jsut a patch at best. What restored my bile flow was using DMSA again last month, which removed the excess of some mineral (presumably one of Iron or copper or calcium) that was blocking production of the enzymes needed for bile generation. If you do not have a post-drug syndrome, then this is the most likely cause of your bile flow being impaired, and if you can figure out what mineral you have too much of and chelate it out, you can heal yourself very quickly (I have had this happen to me twice before, with magnesium and zinc, and both times I healed by chelation). If you do have a post-drug syndrome, that is a lot more complicated and this would likely not work there. Going onto TEI or one of the protocols on this forum would be the way to go in that case.

I have been taking in the 3 minerals in the b2 thread. I doubt I lack in any of them now, even if chelators depleted them before.



@manu I will try to remember to swim in the ocean soon for minerals to see if that helps.

I am more or less taking that approach now of just taking in different minerals with my diet, though I emphasize zinc and manganese and magnesium and phosphorous right now and try to de-emphasize copper and calcium and iron and molybdenum (though I still have been getting a lot, perhaps too much, of the latter 2 in my diet for weeks now).

My hair test that I did in mid-late October does not blatantly show the toxicities I had then, so I don't think they are visible just because they are recent. It had my calcium in the middle of the range, and my other 3 electrolytes as near low. Most other minerals were on the lower side of normal, but zinc and manganese were quite low, and copper and iron were the highest there (middle of the range). Once I get my new hair test back, I will post both of them here.

I would not be surprised if I was in a 3 lows pattern right now. I don't feel completely burned out, and some of my hormones and other things are working, but many others are not working at all, and overall I feel not good at all (but a lot of that is due to physical pain that is only occurring because of lack of copper function).



Today's update:
Continued chronic pain in the last few days from gut bacteria and from retinoids/carotenoids. This is the most difficult part of this whole mess to deal with.

Today I ate some oranges, and the vitamin A compounds in them gave me very bad pain for a couple of hours afterward. I am going to eat some raw carrots with Apple Cider Vinegar and Coconut Oil to get the resurgent (from trying calcium again several days ago) bacterial gut infection to go away again. This is what worked to finally deal with the infection (c diff or a close relative, I think) earlier this month, when it was even worse.

When I was in pain, and observing my lowered energy even compared to just a month ago, I became very angry. I think that is mostly DHT in this case. I think that to reach the full capacity for anger requires estrogen, which is still not here (and the lack of usable copper that results form this is why Vitamin A destroys my body and causes autoimmune symptoms, and why my body can't deal with these gut pathogens by itself). The whites of my eyes after episodes of pain always look more reddened, and the yellowish discoloration on their sides becomes more vivid.

I can switch between producing DHT (I think it is this, and not testosterone, but it is definitely some androgen) and Progesterone almost at will, and same with stomach acid and cortisol. I try to push my body into making progesterone as much as possible- it makes me feel calm and gives me a feeling in my thymus area like I am healing- and also increases emotional resiliency (DHT does too, but in a different and more costly and fragile way). Estrogen and Adrenaline (and presumably thyroid and insulin) remain strongly to completely suppressed, as does my ability to sweat.

My sensitivity to the estrogens in butter did seem to increase a little bit this morning, as it has multiple times this week before regressing. Each time it includes a little bit of an increase in scalp itch, which I take as a sign of progress, but the estrogen receptor upregulation (if that is what this is) always goes away later that day or the next. I am not sure what causes it to increase when it does. I have continued to emphasize manganese in the last few days, and to restrict molybdenum, as I am worried I've been getting too much of the latter. Molybdenum and iron are the two elements I am really worried about my intake of (and Sulfur, to some extent).

My body's production capacity (or just receptor sensitivity?) for prolactin seems to have increased this week- from being almost nonexistent just a week or two ago to being noticeable again. The same has been true for Nitric Oxide, as well (increases when I have the episodes of pain in my body). Both of these also tend to be erratic in the amount and direction that they improve. Between all of these chemicals that retain calcium starting to be produced again I am wondering if my body is on the verge of being able to restore estrogen sensitivity and thus get back into balance. Is this wrong? Can any of you make an educated guess as to what mineral(s) to take to move this process further along? I hopefully will get the new hair test back soon, which should reveal a lot more.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#7
Oh dear, it seems I may now have a very dangerous situation on my hands. Earlier this week I ate some cheese for the first time in a while as a test, and the calcium in it seemed to reactivate the C diff in my colon, causing me pain I had to stop. I took a lactobacillus probiotic to kill it, which may have worked, but the probiotic bacteria caused me a different but similar type of chronic pain. Last night, to kill these lactobacilli, I ate some raw carrot dipped in apple cider vinegar with a tablespoon of refined coconut oil. All 3 of these things kill lactobacillus, and seemed to work for me early this month when I had the same problem but worse.

I got bacteria dieoff symptoms today from that, but things really have taken a turn for the worse tonight. I suddenly have a lot of inflammation (reddened and yellowed eyes, tinnitus, pains at random all across body). The pain and inflammation seem to worsen substantially whenever I allow my body to make more stomach acid. This now does not feel like a bacteria dieoff anymore. My fear is that the coconut oil or ACV last night created (coconut oil can cause leaky gut, and perhaps I should not have taken even that single serving given that I already have leaky gut due to low copper) an opening in my duodenum or even in the stomach itself and that stomach acid is leaking into my bloodstream and poisoning me everywhere from there. Could that be the case? If it is not that, what else could this be? Is the stomach lining made from collagen or elastin, both of which require copper to be made? ~25% of proteins in the body supposedly are from collagen or elastin, so a copper deficient state like the one I'm in is very dangerous. Would taking collagen, or glutamine and glycine, be my best bet at this point? Would the body be able to use these in place of the shut-down endogenous protein synthesis and repair the permeability that the gastri acid is presmubaly leaking out of? This is very worrisome. I'm going to take some baking soda and glutamine and drink lots of water (to dilute the HCL in my blood) now and try to go to sleep.

This pain is very bad and only appeared today, late in the day- the day after taking coconut oil and ACV. Have I screwed myself this way? I am getting recurrent bad pains across my body now, and some brainfog and difficulty focusing, and while I am remaining calm, this does seem like cause for real concern. What should I do when I wake up again? In a copper deficient state is there a way to fix this? Any help would be invaluable here- I do not want to just watch helplessly as my body starts to destroy itself. The pain, tinnitus, etc, continues. Even scalp itch is strongly increased right now despite low estrogen- that is a very bad sign (damage). @Helen do you know anything about this and what I can do? How I can fix intestinal permeability in a copper deficient state, or fix my copper deficient state very quickly in the next day or two so that my body can then heal itself? Any help anyone can give here would be wonderful- this feels like it is just short of becoming an actual emergency at any time, but I do not want it to get that far.

If my mineral imbalance can be fixed that quickly, I think it may be centered on calcium and phosphorus, like I need to get vitamin D. If not, then I would have to imagine that the remaining problem is the toxic excess of a mineral- the big suspects for that are iron, molybdenum, copper, calcium, and phosphorus (and possibly sulfur), becuase I have been taking in lots of almost all minerals recently to restore after chelating for so long. Is there a way to tell?

I suppose this current painful episode could also be the lactobacillus probiotic I took a few days ago, like it was suppressed before now or the bulk of the bacteria were hidden in some physical cavity created by food mass being stuck together in the intestine in a specific way, and now that food has moved and thus opened the cavity and the bacteria can access carbohydrate to feed on and multiply, and their lactic acid is poisoning me (remember my immune system is suppressed). However, my pain does seem to increase very quickly when I induce my body to make more stomach acid. I can feel my body "wanting" to secret more acid right now, probably to digest my last meal, but I am suppressing it (which feels rather uncomfortable) out of fear. I think the "stomach acid leaking out into blood" hypothesis is far more likely, and worrisome.

Maybe since this pain all started (or at least became very noticeable) just in the last few hours, it's not the stomach or upper itnestine (though it could ne that my body just didn't make enough stomach acid today before then for this to happen) but in the colon instead.But I am skeptical of that, because of the apparent almost realtime effects of increasing my own acid secretion in my stomach.

This is also a disappointment because my capacity to produce stomach acid, and cortisol, both seem to be noticeably higher today than they were a couple of days ago. Would it be wrong to think that that's a sign of slight improvement?

I think my bile secretion has lowered again somewhat in the last couple of weeks. I still don't have steatorrhea like I did a couple of months ago, despite continuing to eat lots of butter, but my stools tend to be greenish. Is this a sign of too--low bile?

Perhaps related to this, I also am wondering about the following quote:
" Even a slight increase in protein intake can markedly increase calcium retention. The most important factor, however, is the quantity of phosphorus in the diet in relation to the amount of calcium. Ideally, no more than twice as much phosphorus as calcium should be obtained; yet persons often ingest 10 times more phosphorus than calcium. "
Adelle Davis, Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit

I have for weeks now been consuming far more phosphorus than calcium. I did poison myself with lots of calcium in October from cheese (did this give too much phosphorus as well?), which slowed me down a ton, and I took lots of chelators since then to undo that and get rid of the extra calcium, and recently have eaten lots of zinc and manganese and phosphorus. Have I overdone it? Is this keeping me from healing?

I thought early this week that eating calcium had increased my estrogen receptor sensitivity from basically 0 to at least something, but eating more, from cheese (is this because too much phosphorus, or am I wrong?) did not permanently increase estrogen and estrogen sensitivity (measured by my sensitivity to estrogens in butter), and the calcium seemed to activate my c diff again.
I do seem to have calcium deposits still in my body.
Would sunbathing for vitamin D be helpful here? Or would it be bad for me?

I have no idea, re the quote above, what my calcium balance in my cells and my body as a whole is anymore. I certainly had way too much calcium a couple of months ago, but through chelation and diet, has that now changed? Have I become deficient in it in my cells? Should I start taking calcium again (or sunabthing to bring calcium from deposits into the cells) and restrict my phosphorus intake now? Or am I still toxic in calcium and should push manganese, zinc, phosphorus even further?

I have sometimes had acidic urine recently (not surprising given high protein intake), does this say anything about this?

Is calcium-phosphorus balance the last issue to be fixed to heal me and restore my copper metabolism? Do I currently have too much of either? I don't know what is missing now that is preventing my estrogen from existing again? I have been off chelation for good and taking in lots of different minerals in my diet. Is the last one missing actually usable calcium, and I should just get vitamin D and that will fix me? It's the only primary mineral on the TEI chart that I have not been getting significant amounts of recently, besides copper (but I took in probably too much of it earlier this month and late last month, so I don't know if I am now still toxic in copper or actually deficient in it. I don't know either if I have iron toxicity since my ceruloplasmin is low. Any idea of how to tell which I have?).

Should I stop taking in zinc and manganese? Or keep consuming them even more?

My new TEI results hopefully will get here soon. They cannot come soon enough!

Would it be dangerous to take vitamin C in a functionally-copper deficient state? My big fear is about blood vessels being destroyed due to lack of elastin production, and possibility of collapsing aorta. - see www.ithyroid.com/potassium_and_copper.htm

Also, are there dangers to consuming lots of butter when many of my enzymes are shut down? Does one of the fatty acids in it have a tendency to build up in the body in such cases and cause damage? eg, Does it clog the bile ducts or blood vessels?
 

Helen

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Staff member
Oct 5, 2017
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#8
@Shuddering I will look into your case, been very busy lately. Are you sure you did not cause huge copper dump into the blood with DMSA totally destroying your vitamin C

some folks say that sides from DMSA are low vit C symptoms.


I think you should wait till hairtest comes to see your metabolism
 
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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#9
@Helen
Thank you!
I suppose that is possible. I've taken in plenty of vit C since then, but it could be that the only thing blocking me from being healed now is my foolishly making myself toxic in Cu, Fe, and Ca. Even after getting too much of the first two, I seemed to recover much of my adrenaline production and possibly testosterone in early October, before I ruined that by eating all that cheese. Maybe I was very close to healing myself then, but screwed things up and made myself severely imbalanced now.
I would be surprised though if the low copper from DMSA didn't have at least a lot to do with how effective it is at depleting many different metals from the cells (which is why it lowered my Mercury more quickly than anything else did), which could remove some of the metals that ceruloplasmin requires.

Remember also that after DMSA I got anemia, orange stools, bilirubin in urine, etc, that all went away after eating liver and supplementing Fe and Cu. I don't think that was a lack of vitamin C that did that.

In the meantime, does anyone know about how to deal with stomach acid leaking into the bloodstream and killing you? I woke up today and the problem is just as bad as last night when it started. I have constant tinnitus, and regular but intermittent pains at random throughout my body. I don't want to just sit back as my body destroys itself, risk getting cancers, etc.

Is taking baking soda a good idea? Fiber? Fish with skins (glycine)? Glutamine supplementation? Remember my body can't make collagen or elastin right now, and that might be the problem here.

Might I need arachidonic acid? I have been eating lots of butter, some avocado, fatty fish, nuts, etc, but no eggs, for some months now. Do these sources provide enough AA or might I be missing out / low on it?

I took some baking soda 10-20 minutes ago, and then some algin (n case this problem is caused by calcium or iron from my meal last night) with lots of water, and now I am getting some loud gargling noises in my abdomen. Do these sounds mean the gut lining is being damaged? Or just that bacteria are dying (being deprived by algin of minerals they need to live? I have gotten this sound before during bacteria dieoffs) or that peristalsis is occuring? This is unusually loud for peristalsis sound though.

My hands remain quite warm, which started last night perhaps after eating some anchovies (high minerals), but that might just be cortisol, not thyroid. I'm not sure. Or maybe my thyroid is working again but I actually depleted myself of copper and need that to make ceruloplasmin again.

Last night across a couple of sub-meals I had some of: anchovies, chocolate, buckwheat, turkey, cashews, pasta with red sauce (I ate this because of convenience and time, when normally I wouldn't, due to the pasta being 10% DV iron per serving, and being intolerant to the vitamin A in tomatoes), cornbread with a plant milk in it (calcium), butter.

Come to think of it, the stomach acid problem last night came not long after I ate the pasta w/ tomatoes and also the cornbread (with calcium in it- did that cause this pain (it's actually c diff again?) or by going into my cells and triggering some change? did it cause the increased body temperature?). Could these have caused it- making a hole in my stomach or duodenum? It also happened not long after eating some corn, together with turkey, that did seem to make my stomach feel rather heavy after eating them. Maybe the physical structure of the corn kernels did the damage?

I am in quite a bit of pain right now (on and off). This is not good. None of this is GERD or acid reflux by the way, that hasn't happened even once. It is just purely internal pain.

At least my improvements with nutrition and mercury detox this year let me deal so much better with stress and uncertainty. For years before now I had a tendency to get very anxious or go into fear spirals when emergencies or crises would occur, but now, with cortisol, progesterone, etc, I am incredibly protected against this, and have remained completely calm this whole time, whereas if this happened just a year ago I might have panicked and been broken.

Edit: I've attached my hair test from late October. It is pretty bad, although it is not full burnout. Since this test I have done lots more chelation, but am done with that now. I have also avoided calcium in diet since then, but taken in a lot of just about everything else, including (unfortunately) iron and copper, either of which I may still be toxic in for all I know- and am potentially making myself worse by continuing to take them in in diet- and they are blocking enzymes etc. Are they now all that prevents me from being healed and making ceruloplasmin again- copper and/or iron toxicity? Or do I have a calcium / phosphorus imbalance of some sort now?

I am still awaiting the new hair test results.

Also, this pain from what I think is stomach acid leaking into blood from a perforation in the stomach or duodenum has gotten worse in the last few hours. This is incredibly scary and very painful and stressful- even though I've managed to keep my cool almost this entire time through it. I am worried about the damage this is doing to my body, and how it might cause cancers or some crap like that, or cause all my hair to fall out after my estrogen is restored. Does anyone know what can be done to patch this problem so I don't die before I can fix the underlying mineral imbalance?

Is there a way to briefly force the body to use copper again, so that it can repair the damage to the gut/stomach lining? Or would that lower the pH too much and never be allowed to happen? I fear that this perforation cannot be healed until my mineral imbalance has been healed, but for all I know that could still take weeks or months. If things continue like this I won't make it that long.

What do I do here? What do I do about this gastric acid autointoxication?

Anyone?
 

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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#10
Fuck.
I woke up today and the pain is now much worse. It is all over my body on and off.
It is still intermittent but very frequent now.

A week ago my estrogen seemed to briefly increase a bit. How can I force this so my gut lining can heal and I stop dying?

I'm so fucking sick of doctors and their bullshit, and idk if I'd catch a dangerous pathogen at a hospital since my immune system isn't working right, and I don't trust what they might do if I went to an emergency room- if I might just be signing my life away were I to go there.
What do I do? I am pretty sure this is a hole in my stomach or duodenum, from just a couple nights ago, that HCL is leaking out of. And it seems to be getting bigger/worse.

Has anyone ever seen this before?
Is there a way out of this for someone who can't make collagen or elastin?

Should I go to an emergency room and tell the I think I have gastrointestinal perforation? They may try to do X-rays- but would this be incredibly dangerous when my body is in such a weak state where many enzymes aren't working?
Are CT scans safe?

To show how weak my body is- common lactobacillus probiotic products give me autotimmune symptoms. Despite all the pain I'm going through now my inflammation is suppressed and not many inflammatory symptoms are appearing at all (inflammation I guess depends on the estrogen/SNS side of things). Bottled water causes me pain and poisoning symptoms. I can't eat all sorts of foods (potatoes, high vit A foods, anything with PUFA oils, tryptophan-heavy proteins (dairy), etc) without suffering very badly.

It says that they commonly give antibiotics in cases of GI perforation. I have no clue what these could do to me right now, and I don't want to tend up with some serious fungal infection that will give me POIS or something down the line. Should I refuse antibiotic treatment? Accept it?

The pain is now getting worse and worse and I feel terrible.

This is a genuine time-sensitive emergency now. Anyone who knows something that might help - please share it.

@bruschi11 You talked about dealing with doctors during an emergency in your log I think. Do you have any advice on how to deal with them and how to protect myself from things they may push that could be very harmful to me in this weak state like antibiotics or X-ray scans or intraparenteral nutrition (PUFA oils, vitamin A, etc) if surgery and bowel rest is recommended?

@Helen do you know anything about what I can do?
And might there be a way to just heal my (temporarily or permanently)

Anyone?

As I finish writing this I managed to secure a doctor's appointment in a bit over an hour from now. Is there anything I should know in advance? I will tell them at least that I have a mineral imbalance and that my body can't use copper-dependent processes like making certain proteins needed for gut lining, that I've been diagnosed already by an MD with leaky gut syndrome, etc.

I took a little baking soda, and I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting.

The pain has been getting worse overall the more time passes (for the last couple of days). This is very very bad.

My big question for the moment is whether I should accept their likely recommendation in an hour to get X-ray scans. Is this safe for me to do? What if it damages gut lining or blood vessels further and I can't repair them b/c no copper? What about other scans like CT?
 
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Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oct 5, 2017
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#11
go on TEI and stay on it

I think it will be best for you to get stable. Dont take anything and stop fucking yourself even more.
 
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bruschi11

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Oct 3, 2017
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#12
Just relax man. Don’t drive yourself crazy. You are 23 and have a lot ahead of you. Just calm down and try to find what is wrong with you right now. You’re going to be okay, hang in there.
 
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Shuddering

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Dec 11, 2019
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#13
I agree TEI will fix everything long term, but the problem is surviving long enough for it to do that. With my immune system and protein synthesis not working, I keep getting hit out of nowhere with these serious crises that put everything at risk. Since balancing me might take a while, the only thing I can do to deal with those is to try patches. Besides attempted patches for these problems, I haven't been taking anything recently besides food, and the food does tend to be in line with TEI's last recommendations for me (ZMC, Potassium, Magnesium Chromium B6).

The bacterial infection that I've been dealing with on and off for 2 months was putting me in tons of pain all day, and would have made me far worse if I hadn't taken these antibacterial things to deal with it (coconut oil, carrot, ACV, malic acid, algin). I was fine eating all of those things many times earlier this month, even just a couple of weeks ago or less, but after doing it again 3 nights ago, this new serious problem appeared just 24 hours later. It might have been from one of those, or maybe it was from something else making a perforation in GI tract, or maybe it is something else entirely (some sort of new infection is my next best guess).

TEI can't deal with unpredictable short term problems like that, unless I'm mistaken? So I have to do patches for these threats whenever they appear, to buy time for the protocol to work to get me balanced.

This afternoon I haven't had much pain so I've been in a good mood and functioning well (though the ringing in my ears is unceasing- and sometimes I'll feel like a random spot in my body like in my skull or a blood vessel or an area on my arm or a tooth is being poisoned- ti's a feeling quite similar to when I had previous gut infections actually, so maybe that is what this is), but this morning for a half hour or so I was wracked with pain across my body, not too long after a meal. It was debilitating when it occurred, even though I can walk around quite energetically when this isn't happening. I ate some probiotic yogurts (non-dairy) that greatly improved me in the past, in case this is just a gut infection since these will kill pathogens there with acidity. Maybe eating these had something to do with this respite, or maybe they are doing nothing at all and the problem is physical damage to the gut rather than an infection.

Actually- it may have been the tomato (nightshade), as I ate that very shortly before this new problem started a few days ago, whereas the antibacterial stuff was eaten the night before. I remember eating that same meal about a year ago gave me a great deal of gastrointestinal distress for hours afterwards, and without copper-dependent proteins my body now might be less able to repair the damage.

It also might have been a bacterium from the anchovies I ate that night,, that my weak immune system can't stop easily.

I went to a doctor yesterday, and we got some blood tests done and will have the results back very soon. It is just general stuff though, and I could not convince him of much or of the severity of this - he dismissed most of what I said and thought I was healthy, even though I have been so intolerant to many near-ubiquitous food compounds that if I ate the foods that most people do today I would almost certainly be dead now, even though I had 2 different months-long bacterial infections the second half of this year that I could feel destroying my body until I succeeded in subduing or annihilating them (and he heavily implied that I was mistaken that they were bacterial, or serious in nature, or perhaps even real at all. Not that I was expecting anything more than this kind attitude from any of his ilk at this point). He took the fact that my skin on my face still looks mostly good and youthful to mean that I must be healthy, despite everything I told him, that I've been in pain on and off for months, that I'm probably only alive now because my diet cuts out so many things that most people eat regularly, that my inflammatory response is probably heavily suppressed because of my lack of copper-dependent enzymes so of course I don't have a fever or look terrible. He ended our appointment by pontificating about how it probably wasn't was what I think it might be, not giving any real reason why not, but as an alternative explanation said it might be "anxiety" or "something in the nervous system"- as far as I could tell it was just a long-winded way of suggesting that it was all in my head. I suppressed my anger and left to get the blood tests done - at least he permitted some general tests to be performed. I suppose we'll see how they go.

I have tended recently to be very calm and in good spirits whenever I am not currently in substantial pain, but when it does occur with any real intensity it temporarily makes me angry or distraught. On the whole I am optimistic, but obstacles like this tend to throw me off. I am very confident that they will heal me in time- the ongoing inflammation/damage that started in the last few days just makes me feel as if I might suddenly drop dead before then if a blood vessel or something gets destroyed and my body can't repair it. I am not in a neurotic or panicking state of mind about this- I just feel rational fear with a rather strong sense of urgency and am thus attempting to figure out what is causing it and how to fix it so that I maximize my chances of survival. With a couple exceptions, things seemed to be going really well early this week and I was calm and hardly stressed at all, but the this happened and I had no choice but to go back into crisis mode

I will stick to TEI's last recs for me and not take anything else besides patches for this crisis and any others that should appear in the future. A potential problem is that for my recent hairtest that I am still waiting on, I ordered the cheaper 2 page version with just the results, and not the recommendations, since I figured my use of heavy chelation during November (no plans to do any chelation ever again though, besides vit C) would throw them off, and thus make TEI not work for me even if I did only what they asked.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#14
Today has been easier so far than yesterday. I had some milk protein last night, and the essential amino acids in that may have helped repair my colon a bit, or maybe I have not improved at all and the pain will come back with a vengeance soon. It also may have been the mineral oil I had with dinner for help with peristalsis, and hopefully to cover up any tears or holes in the colon.

I have been eating lots of protein, per the TEI recs.

I started TEI's recommendations for me in full last night, and have continued today. Their protocol for me right now is probably normal fare for fixing a slow oxidizer- they have me on lots of Vit C, zinc, manganese, B6, potassium, magnesium, chromium, and lower doses of various other vitamins, selenium, etc

I expect that these supplements will, as gbolduev warned others, make me feel terrible at first, but in doing so will fix my toxicities (Fe, Cu, Ca etc). I suppose I'll just have to do what I can to over up the colon inflammation problem so I survive, and just endure whatever happens this month.

In fact, some of my body functions already feel noticeably worse today compared to two days ago. My NO production seems significantly lowered (reduction of bioavailable calcium? From all this manganese, vitamins, etc?), as does peristalsis, scalp sensitivity, and dopamine. This is fine, right? I should just stick with it and accept that it is working and will get better afterwards on the next leg of the protocol?


My post for yesterday, that I didn't have time then to put here:

"Today was terrible. I have been feeling constant pain and inflammation all day long, everywhere in my body. I think this is colon inflammation of some sort- either a perforation (from tomato is my primary suspect here, given the timing and my past experience with it) that can’t be healed without copper proteins, or a bacteria flareup (this could be c. diff- the sensations in my nerves feel quite similar to that, so it could be the same thing. This outbreak just feels even more virulent and unrelenting than ever before).

This is very very bad. I know everything will be fixed if I can last long enough for TEI to fix me over time, but if I can’t fix this new problem in my colon soon I will not make it that long. I continue to feel constant pain even as I type this. It tends to hit one small area of my body, then 20 seconds later or so hit another, and keeps going on like this hour after hour.

Does anyone know a good way to fix this? What could fix c diff and make it inactive, if that is the problem, or cover up a hole in my colon, if that is the problem?

I am doing the TEI supps now. Perhaps this is a long shot, but I hope that they can very quickly increase my estrogen/copper just a little bit in the short term (I know that’s not what TEI normally is for), and that will be enough for my body to fix this pressing problem. I don’t think I can be that far from getting a bit of estrogen/cerulo going again, since a month ago I had it there, and it started to increase a little again last week before going back away.

I continue to have a cold (perhaps the 3rd week straight by now- but at least I am capable of getting sick again) and am coughing all the time.

I am mostly in a good mood, despite how and everything is at the moment, and remain calm even through all the pain (except when it is at its most intense), and if it wasn’t for that I’d be in a great state at the moment. I have the attitude now of just collectedly going about my tasks and attempting to figure out what I can do to get out of this mess. Either I will succeed, or this will be the thing that finally finishes me, cutting me down as I earnestly continue my efforts. "


Today again:
Right now I just had a meal and supps, and I am tired and in pain and feeling neuropathies in hands, etc, but I don't know how much of this is from my colon problem versus perhaps a bacterial dieoff that the supplements induced just now by changing the pH. When I started eating lots of manganese a few weeks ago, it also caused a dieoff within less than an hour, I guess from a sudden pH change or activating certain anti-microbial enzymes. It also made my voice deeper within minutes after eating it, and it seems to have done the same just now. Many of the supplements are also chelators, so that can also be expected to make someone tired (and to kill bacteria, by pulling the minerals they are dependent on right out away from them (hence, all or part of why EDTA chelation is sometimes so effective for heart disease, but I think fixing toxicities of minerals reopens enzymes that they've blocked, and is another way it works in those cases)).
 
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Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
105
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#15
From yesterday (Jan 4-5):

Today I didn't have much to eat in the morning. I continued to get vitamin A dumping symptoms, related pain and inflammation, etc for many hours after waking up. Bile sounds continued during this whole time, intermittently. Good.

For dinner I had white flour, butter, etc items. A bit later I had some beef and some kiwis. I

My urine has been kind of butter colored today and tonight- I think these are retinoids from butter (whereas when I get vit A detox symptoms from plant foods it tends to be more orange).

Last night (2 nights ago now) my bile flow (per the sounds and sensations) seemed to return all of a sudden, hopefully permanently, and I went through yet another massive vit A detox for 12 hours continuously. Very painful and uncomfortable, but had to happen. It seems to be over now (has my body started with coppe,r then moved to vitamin A, and now moved on to iron?).

My terrible pain from colon inflammation that can strike anywhere in my body seems now to be (mostly?) gone, as of today and last night. Wonderful. I have been spamming proteins of different types (a wide variety from fish, meat, bone broth etc) and butter for many days to try to heal it. It is possible that when my bile flow started again yesterday that was from getting copper or another mineral below the level of toxicity through chelation, vitamins, protein intake, etc that I've been doing with TEI, and thus many different enzymes opened up again, including some that allowed me to finally repair my intestine. Or maybe it was bacterial infection of the colon wall that was doing it, and my body killed it by releasing unbound copper into the blood for long enough (and that's why my estrogen/ceruloplasmin seems to have been even lower the past couple days (despite possible improvement elsewhere like with bile production), it is basically literally at 0 right now from what it feels like (vit C lowering ceruoplasmin?)). Well- I hope this lasts, both of these positive developments, because that will be a massive relief. The last week was so scary.
Mentally I was in a good place a week ago before the colon scare started, but I am not back to that place yet, in part because feeling the pain in my head and my liver etc tonight from the TEI - rec’d vitamins was very demoralizing. I am not sure which one was causing it, but I was getting liver pain, head pain, brain fog, neuropathy, etc, and I don'' think this is just from a copper dump or something.

I am worried that the neuropathy in hands I felt for a bit was from b6, and so I won't be able to use it any more to dump copper.

I took, biotin, b5, b6, b2, b1, folate, niacin, all in doses rough in the range of that rec’d by TEI. Yet this seems to be causing me harm.

What shall I do?

I am also not at all sure that taking this much ascorbic acid daily is safe either, the high amount that they recommend.

TEI has me on like 20 mg of manganese a day. That is fucking insane. That is like 600 mg a month, 1200 mg every 2 months. In what world is this safe or a good idea? It’s no wonder TEI often takes multiple years to cure someone, when I have been able to cure myself of similar problems in just a mere day by chelation. That is what I have been trying to replicate the last 2 months (it was 2 months ago (early November) that I realized properly what the nature of my current problem really is), the issue is that the is the worst imbalance I have ever had, and so I don't' really have my body giving extra support against over-accumulation of minerals through ceruloplasmin, MT, etc. That is all just completely shut off, so only chelators and dietary protein can fix it, but my toxicity (ies) is large enough that taking the chelator doses needed to remove it has depleted other things, so I have not been victorious so far (but certainly have progressed a lot).

Will the essential amino acids recommended in the electrolytes protocol thread be enough on their own? (My body can't handle whey protein or egg protein currently). Does the body with these regulate and fix its own mineral imbalance this way, as opposed to the more general and untargeted effects of chelators? Eg, if you have too much iron but normal magnesium, the EAAs will let the body dump iron but retain magnesium, whereas a chelator would remove them both indiscriminately and leave you low in magnesium when you don’t want that?

If I am just going to be taking things anyways that cause me more liver damage, as the TEI vitamins seem to be doing at their recommended doses, then why don’t I just use DMSA instead? While more general and untargeted, it is far stronger at removing minerals from the cells and liver. Really, why shouldn't I? And this is what cured me a few months ago from my magnesium toxicity (even if I overdid the dose) in just days, whereas TEI might have taken years to figure that out, all the while poisoning me with unbound minerals from supplements. Forget that, I will not be doing that after everything I have learned through barely saving my life or health this year many times, through chelation.

If my bile flow really has been restored for good again as of yesterday, then it would appear that the vitamins were effective in lowering my copper to subtoxic levels, which bodes well for the amino acid blend, so maybe this will be enough, and I won’t need DMSA etc at all, but I don’t know.

Wow yeah b1 is giving me pain everywhere, just continuously. And this doesn’t feel like pain from its chelating action.

Yeah now the little bit of thiamine is giving me itchy eyes, pain in forearm, in head, sharp pain in head, in lower back. Ringing in ears. Brain fog.

Actually, it has now been a few hours since I wrote the above 2 paragraphs on thiamine, and I have reconsidered and now think it actually is the chelating action that is doing this, and that my body for hours now has been dumping iron. I think this is mostly the iron that I took in in late September, from liver and supplements. The supplemental iron I remember I could feel oxidizing in my tissues (brain, body, mouth, etc) not long after I took it. I applied it transdermal as well to avoid worsening gut dysbiosis. That had been a mistake, of course, just like taking copper at the same time. Beef liver alone provided enough of both. I suppose that iron has mostly just been sitting there for this whole time, though I think I did chelate some of it out in recent months without feeling it. This experience this morning makes me more inclined to believe my conception (many others before me have had similar and probably more detailed conceptions of this- I am not taking credit for this idea or anything, merely referring to my own experience) of the body as removing toxins in layers, or in stages. This fit my experience with mercury. When I started the iodine protocol almost a year ago, I got the bromide detox first, which had its own specific set of sensations that I could feel, and then some time after that had subsided I began to get a new sensation whenever I took further iodine, a very painful one that I later realized was mercury. It felt the same whenever I took chelators from that point on, or sulfur (eg flowers of sulfur). I hadn't felt that painful mercury sensation in the past whenever I tried sulfur compounds or iodine. It was like the body had been storing the mercury in a lower, hidden layer, and once I removed higher layer with iodine and selenium, and foods, that uncovered the next layer with mercury in it. Something similar I think is occurring here. Now vitamin C, sodium, etc all seem to activate the release of this toxic iron, when just a day ago they did no such thing.

The thiamine gave me symptoms like a metallic blood-like taste in my mouth, but without any blood there (iron). Ringing in ears, itchiness in eyes, certain sensations of pain in different parts of the body, a weird loopy or dizzy feeling in head, brain fog, tiredness, faster heart rate, what I think are some more bile release sounds as well (which I am very happy about- but somewhat anxious about as well, since I have a fear that this will prove to be only a temporary development). I think this should help with my infections as well- clearing out these metals that the microbes can use to grow.

Dr Wilson writes that Iron, Manganese, and Aluminum tend to leave the body together, but he may have been referring only to certain forms of them.

In the last couple of hours, to help out with this iron detox, I drank a lot of water, took some potassium, took a little bit of IP-6, had some salt following a mild craving (which seemed to activate the iron dump further), ate a bunch of kiwis (potassium and whole food vit C), and just now actually took some more thiamine, which seems to be triggering further iron release.

Now I am getting more neuropathy in my hands, it very likely only is due to the thiamine (and almost certainly not due to pyridoxine, which I haven't taken for several hours or more), but I think (at least hopefully) that this is from iron dumping and not from any imbalance created by the vitamin supplementation.

A lot of my writing below that refers to my painful experience last night taking the B vitamins (liver pain, head pain etc) ignores the realization I had this morning that I’ve started an iron detox, but I have left it as I wrote it both for intellectual honesty and because I am still concerned that much of it was not due to metal release but from one or more of the vitamin powders creating a vitamin imbalance or causing amino acid depletion, or being treated by my liver as a toxin but overwhelming it and causing mass hepatocyte death. It could've been b6, b5, folate, biotin, b2 that did that. I must be wary going forward, even if I don't stop b vitamin supplementation like I suggested I do below (the order of paragraphs in this post does not always correspond to the order in which they were written), to not screw my body up further.

Back to stuff written several hours ago in the early morning hours:

Ow the sharp pain from thiamine in my head continues. Painful inflammatory feeling of slight bit of acne forming on forehead (would be much more acne I bet if my hormones weren’t low). Pain in head is back yet again.

A shame that thiamine does this (added later: well this is probably just iron detox, so that is actually a good thing. Disregard this). It is like the inverse analogue of vit C, it chelates iron, retains/absorbs copper. I’ll have to use protein amino acids and IP-6 instead. Unfortunately meat and fish (sardines especially) have plenty of iron, as do vegetables (a reason that paleo diets often end disastrously for people? Eschewing refined cabs with low mineral content may be a disastrous choice. This notion that the loss of minerals in refining of grains is a bad thing is a very dangerous idea- just look at what iron fortification did, even besides the physically harmful nature of the iron shavings). I can try to heavily balance my carbs towards white flour, which has a surprising amount of manganese and selenium anyways. I am actually wary now of even eating buckwheat, due to its mineral content. This all brings to mind when I tried over a year ago to eat all my carbs from potatoes, since they were more nutritious than white/refined grains, and had to stop and replace much of the potato intake with white flour because I kept getting chest pain and fatigue from all the phosphorus. It is more than just phosphorus though, I now know. All of the minerals can overaccumulate and destroy the functioning of the body. Don’t rely on vegetables and tubers alone, add some unenriched “non-nutritious“ white flour to your diet. Too much nutrition will kill you, as it almost has done to me a few times.

If I could just do what Helen did in that thread of his with 2g Thiamine per day and other b vits I am sure I could heal very rapidly, but that doesn't seem to be an option for me here since the b vits are now giving me in so much pain, at far lower doses than that. Well over an hour later the thiamine seems to still be giving me sharp pain in my head. (update from several hours later, this may actually be fine- and I can work up to larger amounts of thiamine akin to Helen’s protocol as I work through this backlog of iron, which is what is giving me the pain from thiamine. And so the use of b1, b2, b6, C, will let me use them as targeted chelation for iron and copper, the way that TEI probably intended them to be used, just I won't include their dangerous mineral supplementation. Is there any vitamin or amino acid that works this way to normalize or chelate calcium, or to balance calcium and phosphorus or magnesium?)

No more b vitamin powders. At least for a long while. They are lowering minerals which is great but they are also fucking me up. If I keep doing them I will destroy my liver and brain. I know that for sure after tonight.
Really, I must stick to this. No more b vitamin supplements, and no more copper in diet. (well now I will reconsider. I am very suspicous of biotin and folate and b5 and b3 though, I think one of them might be doing some damage. I think b3 can be treated by the liver as a toxin, I must be wary of it)
But my problem now is that I am still toxic in something. That may well be my only problem now. I need to keep lowering copper I definitely have too much of that and even if I am technically subtoxic now I still need to lower it to enable ceruloplasmin and to prevent it from getting too high again just from eating common foods.
( well I am reconsidering this now- I will have to ascertain how much of the pain came from dumping metals versus inherent toxicity or unusability of specific vitamin powders)

Why does my ceruloplasmin/estrogen feel even lower in the last few days?
Remember that vitamin C doesn't just lower copper levels in the body per the studies, but it lowers ceruloplasmin as well. It may be doing that to me.

I need to take in a lot of some minerals while chelating, so I lose the ones I have too much of, whichever they are.

I also had some calcium food in my meal tonight (this now is last night, as of the time that I posted this), so I must be on the lookout tomorrow for c diff activation.

I just took a but more thiamine with some food to inhibit iron absorption, and I now am feeling a bit of discomfort, pain in head, inflammation, even a bit of neuropathy in hands. Thiamine is part of the problem with the b vit powders. (this section was written before many of the earlier parts of the post, the night before, so the order is off)

Yeah thiamine just a little bit of it is making me feel pretty bad, this isn't good. But B6 or b3 or b5 or biotin or folate or niacin may have been making me feel much worse. The TEI supplementation is just not working for me. How can I continue this for a long period of time? It's only been a few days, and it is causing serious problems, though a least it probably has chelated effectively for me (copper, etc).
Stop the vitamins tomorrow, except C. (I ended up continuing b1 today, but not too much.)
Keep spamming protein, start the EAAs, and rely on those. Look at hairtest when it arrives and combine that with knowledge of what I've done since then.

Keep avoiding copper like the plague, and be prepared for c diff reactivation tomorrow from calcium just in case. Sunbathe perhaps.

I am still copper toxic or on the edge of it. Stay away from copper. From calcium, from iron. Get the minerals though.
Yeah thiamine is just making me feel terrible, and this wasn't much of it at all. Don't take the b vitamins tomorrow they re just unbalancing me no surprise there.
How could Helen handle 2g of thiamine a day after his finasteride crash like he said? For me now perhaps <100mg just really fucks with me. If I could take that much per day it would be great it could get my iron under control, same with riboflavin and pyridoxine to control copper. but I can't risk doing that. I felt liver damage occur tonight, I know from past experiences that b vitamin powders can do this, and it’s very was to get imbalanced using them, using them the last few days on TEI’s recommendations went against my better judgement, and now I am paying a price for them.

I can’t continue this- neither not the vitamins nor the minerals (well the vitamins I might not be able to continue, I'll see). TEI can’t work for me. I am not going to basically make myself worse doing it, on an uncertain bet that it will cure me in a long time from now after seriously unbalancing me. I am not going to do that, The longer amount of time I spend in this body state the worse it will be. And I also am needed. I have to cure myself soon, in the next few months, to get my memory and cognition and energy and productivity and charisma back, because I have a lot I have to accomplish this year, and it will be very demanding. I will not go into detail, but the stakes of what I have to accomplish this year and the next are very high, not just for myself but for others. I will not, indeed cannot, take the uncertain, long-winded, dangerous, TEI route. I will use chelation and diet, and my own specific detailed knowledge of my own case, to balance myself, in the next few months. Not TEI. Anyone here who can and would like to is welcome to help me and give their advice, if they have any. Any assistance I would greatly appreciate, but if I have to do this alone then I will do that and give it everything I have just the same.

I have made it this far and extricated myself from multiple serious crises that were quite similar in nature to this one, and that I can in all likelihood cure myself quite soon, and so that is what I shall try for. For all I know, I am actually extremely close at this moment to restoring my production of thyroid and estrogen, and going on TEI would make me worse for a long time as they try to figure out what I already know about my individual case from my own obsessing over the details of what I've been doing for months. This is not to mention the damage and unbalancing the supplements already seem to be doing after just a few days, even as they do act to lower the minerals they should, like copper. I hate taking supplements, I can't wait to stop using them forever and rely only on food again.

I might already have made myself unnecessarily toxic in manganese by taking their unphysiologically high doses of it in this time. I shall have to figure out how to carefully chelate it out and to restrict it from my diet while not upsetting the balancing of my other minerals.

I will try the essential amino acids soon, and see if those are enough to fix me. The Histidine in it alone might be enough to fix remaining copper toxicity.

I am not going to keep taking zinc and manganese supplements etc like TEI wants me to. This is simply insane. I am very close to being fixed, the tricky part is doing this last part right. Taking a bunch of chelators might be enough to fix the remaining toxicities, but that could really screw things up in the opposite direction and deplete me of things again. I am going to hold off form aggressive chelation right now, beyond the TEI rec'd stuff I'm already doing. I will keep up the vitamins if I can.

I took a little boron tonight for the first time in months, as a test to see if I'd depleted myself of it and needed more.

What if the return of bile flow (I am still not certain yet if it is permanent, or not artificially induced from the huge vitamin doses from TEI) is not from fixing copper toxicity, but from vitamin C simply transporting iron from my liver to the cells into a more usable form?
 

Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#16
Dont take TEI program, if you are going to mix it wiht stuff, it will only make you feel worse.

large doses of minerals are used to impair absorption of others.

To chelate copper and iron usually zinc and manganese are used.


if you look at your hairtest, you will see you are redistributing mercury like crazy. and all other toxic metals. that can really screw you up for years

You need to follow safe chelation protocols. I am not sure how you used DMSA , but mercury redistribution can be dangerous.
 
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Shuddering

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Dec 11, 2019
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#17
Dont take TEI program, if you are going to mix it wiht stuff, it will only make you feel worse.

large doses of minerals are used to impair absorption of others.

To chelate copper and iron usually zinc and manganese are used.


if you look at your hairtest, you will see you are redistributing mercury like crazy. and all other toxic metals. that can really screw you up for years

You need to follow safe chelation protocols. I am not sure how you used DMSA , but mercury redistribution can be dangerous.
I agree, but the first couple days on TEI just now I didn't take anything else. I did exactly as they asked me. I only added a couple other things in the last day or two (low dose chelators a couple of times, a little more electrolytes) because I realized TEI probably wasn't going to work if I did it exactly as they recommended me to do with these huge doses of minerals. I know the minerals they give are to antagonize the minerals that slow oxis accumulate, but I think that just taking them in these gargantuan amounts (especially manganese- 20 mg per day for weeks or months like they told me is outrageous- lt's the same as my mistake with copper and iron in September that made this all take so much longer than it had to- I needed those minerals, but I took too high doses and became toxic in them, this is my only problem now), is actually very unsafe. Even though it helps fight Iron Copper Calcium this isn't the way because it will make you toxic in these things as well. I'd become somewhat less toxic in Iron Copper Calcium, but become toxic in manganese and chromium and zinc.

To inhibit their absorption I can just use vit C with copper meals, vit b1 with iron meals, and is there a corresponding vitamin that inhibits calcium or managnese absorption?

I don't think the hair test I posted above from October shows that at all. By then I'd removed most of my mercury with chelation, gold, etc, and I could feel this because I could take by then take doses of ALA and other things that just a couple of months before would have killed me. This time they only gave a little bit of mercury pain, indicating that my load of it had fallen a lot. By the end of October I had considered myself basically cured of mercury poisoning, and it remains this way. Mercury and other toxic metals are no longer a problem for me basically at all. The only problem now is the excess of minerals that I took in (my mistake) after DMSA caused a severe imbalance - these are copper, Iron, and calcium, and now perhaps a few others since I've been in this unhealthy state for months.

I used DMSA following the Andrew Cutler Protocol aka Frequent Low Dose Chelation. I did my first round with DMSA in mid-September, it every 4 hours, alongside ALA every 3 hours, for several days total, and nearly 3 grams DMSA total. In a week or so later I ended up with anemia, low hormone production, etc. This was my first time taking DMSA, and I did it exactly as one is supposed to, but it unbalanced my minerals very badly.

The arsenic in the hair test is probably from brown rice that I ate earlier that month- which I felt give me pain across my body after I ate it. I am not distributing toxic metals like crazy (except oxidized iron atm it seems) because there really aren't any left in my body. I became intimately familiar this summer and fall with what mercury redistribution feels like, and I don't feel it anymore at all (except early in December when I ate an ocean fish that seemed to have some in it- I kept feeling it after bile release for days after and now it is gone).

I think something like the electrolytes protocol is my best bet. The amino acids and vitamins basically act like (targeted) chelators, and hopefully it should fix me within a few weeks or months. Actually it could overlap a lot with TEI by giving the same vitamins and same diet guidelines. It is mostly the mineral supplements in TEI that I don't trust, I will post more detail in next few days on why I think that is so dangerous. I will just restrict the minerals I think I have too much of (Ca, Cu, Fe, Mn, maybe Mo) from my diet, and eat vitamins with them to inhibit their absorption when I do have foods with them, and eat foods with lots of the other minerals I want to retain and not lose to the chelating action of these things.

Plus, I think electrolytes style approach might heal me pretty quickly, but going on TEI basically guarantees it will take much much longer. I don't view that as an option, especially since my entire problem now is only from the last 3 months (so it shouldn't take too long to heal, should it?) and I have fixed my original mercury problem.
 
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Shuddering

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Dec 11, 2019
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My problem now is not toxic metals but too much of some nutritional metals- eg iron copper maybe calcium and manganese. All the mercury is gone, and DMSA made me deficient in many nutritional metals but in the aftermath I took too many of some of them (iron calcium copper) and not enough of others. Now I'm not deficient in any significant mineral except functionally (for copper).

I think my ONLY remaining cause of problems is that I have too much of some minerals in me- copper iron maybe calcium and manganese and maybe even molybdenum (or phoshporus, can that happen?). My big question is this for @Helen or anyone else who would know- Would electrolytes protocol with high amounts of EAAs, dietary protein, b vitamin powders, and electrolytes but low mineral foods cure me soon? Protein intake and b and c vit powders already seem to have done this a lot for me in last week or so, but I am wondering if this will wok for all minerals I might have too much of. You can think of my case as similar to PFS in that lots of unused minerals are built up in cells and organs, and these shut off enzymes from working, and as soon as these excess minerals are removed the functions of my body will be restored. So doesn't electrolytes protocol work for that and within a couple weeks, or am I mistaken? Am I correct that for removing copper iron calcium etc, vitamin powders and aminos are better and safer than taking a proper chelator like ALA?

I think that protocol may cure me in just days if I work up to high enough dosages of Bs and aminos, but I need confirmation that it will, and also help finding good products for b2 and essential aminos. Please help, I feel like I could be healed very soon but if I don't it could get far worse at any time, like with my terrible crisis last week.

Last night I tried an essential aminos powder, and it seemed to be a disaster. Whey, egg whites, and this all give me very bad pain, liver pain, brain fog, etc. I woke up with high ammonia feeling, cloudy head, lowered sexual and hormonal function, some acne on face that wasn't there yesterday, etc. I think a very big problem for me right now is tryptophan. I just can't handle it (due to near zero bioavailable copper?). Does anyone know of a good amino acid powder without tryptophan, the cheaper the better? Would a plant based powder you can buy in a grocery store work? Are those too high in minerals from the plant it's from though? This is really important if aminos can cure me by chelating metals.

I then tried more b vitamin powders, not too much. Yet b2 gave me liver pain, pain elsewhere in body, etc. Ray Peat said that b2 supplements are common allergens because they are made from corn. @ Helen what were the b vitamin ratios that you used in your own electrolytes protocol? Do you know of a b2 product that isn't allergenic/sourced from corn, since I cannot keep using corn based ones they are too harmful?

Does thiamine give some people neuropathy if they take too much, or is that a dieoff/detox? The last couple days I've continued I think to dump iron, but I have been getting more from the meat I've been eating, and some vegetables. I want to keep taking thiamine, I think it has been helpful and enabling the iron detox here, but I am worried that thiamine powder is imbalancing me or doing me harm. Is taking thiamine alone fine, or will that deplete b2 etc? The issue is that it's hard to find a safe b2 supplement.




Today I ate lots of turkey (100g protein from that alone maybe, is that enough? I would've done more but even the low fat version I got seems to have too much PUFA- it hurts me. Or maybe that is the tryptophan in all meat), and various vegetables, several kiwis (vitamin C in these keeps ceruloplasmin low?), etc. Not much butter, I'm trying going without a high intake for a few days to see what happens. Right now after eating turkey during dinner I'm in pain, some scalp tingling, etc. I'm not sure if that was the small amount of PUFA in the meat, or if my body is using the protein from it to dump metals.

I got lots of sympathetic nervous system activation today and yesterday, walking very long distances and hills etc. Maybe that helped, or maybe not, but yesterday I sprinted briefly and it seems like it actually brought my adrenaline up and triggered a bit of scalp tingling (estrogen, ceruloplasmin) though only briefly- it is the first time in a while that sprinting has done that for me. Is it a sign I am close to improving? I also possibly am somewhat sensitive again to estrogens in food. I touched a receipt (BPA, an estrogen) and it put me in bad pain and stress for like 20 minutes afterward (low liver detox function means I can't handle poisons like that right now, episodes like this make me really desperate to get healed soon). I got a little bit of scalp itch from the small amounts of PUFA in my foods today, alongside pain elsewhere. These things make me wonder if I'm very close to healing if I just take the right things. After all my body function is very good right now in lots of ways, I am making stomach acid, bile and peristalsis (these came back a few days ago I think after taking vitamin c to lower copper which was blocking them, but these may have declined again a day or two later from maybe taking in more copper in diet and crossed above threshold for copper toxicity again, or using more vitamins/chelators too much at once even though I don't think it was that much, or becoming manganese toxic), androgens, etc. The estrogen adrenaline sweating side of things just still seems to be shut down. If my only problem is being toxic in some minerals and removing them will fix me then will electrolytes protocol cure me soon, or will I need ot resrot again to chelators I'd rather not, like DMSA ALA etc?

Tomorrow I may go sunbathe and swim in the ocean.

I feel really stupid for taking all that Manganese even though it was TEI's advice. I think that may have slowed down my recovery even further. Maybe I am manganese toxic now and that's keeping me from being healed. Maybe that made my bile flow go down again. Would electrolyte protocol safely chelate manganese?

I took a little lithium for the first time in a while, it gave me pain (it's a supplement) but may have helped with ammonia. I won't use it again just this once. I might try taking a little silicon again, and a little more boron, and chromium (TEI rec'd that one) , but then I won't take any minerals after that, I will only be doing things to dump minerals, which will heal me.

I really need to fix this soon. All sorts of food compounds put me in pain, and I can't go on like this forever, just waiting for something bad to happen with my gut again that coudl finally finish me off, etc.
 

Shuddering

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Dec 11, 2019
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#19
The first part of this post is the really important part, I just ask that people read this part and offer any advice they can:

I think my problem is just that I'm toxic in copper and iron and manganese and maybe calcium still and that if I chelate them enough while replenishing other minerals I can be cured very quickly. But my body is in a really dangerous position rn and I've been in a lot of pain, so I am very desperate and I am begging for help- just to answer the questions in this post- anyone who knows anything about this.

@Helen you said in other threads that you know of people fixing parkinson's by using megadoses of b1 and b2, and you know of people curing themselves of chronic issues with ALA to get metals (you weren't specific which- did you mean copper and iron as well?) out of the brain. Could you elaborate on that and tell me all you know?
Does ALA specifically and without fail fix iron and copper toxicity, including both the brain and liver? Do you know roughly the dosages required for a given amount of copper and iron, and how much of other minerals get depleted for a given ALA dose?
What are your thoughts on supplementing ascorbic acid to fix copper toxicity while in a state of very low ceruloplasmin (which it also lowers)?

Could you also go into detail about high dose b vitamins to fix iron and copper toxicity, and the electrolytes protocol used for this purpose (chelation) - am I correct that the same way it greatly improved you after your 3rd finasteride crash in that thread of yours by removing lots of oxidized minerals that it could work the same for me (toxic in a few minerals) and cure me within a couple of weeks? What were the b vitamin ratios that you used in your own electrolytes protocol? Do you know of a b2 product that isn't allergenic/sourced from corn, since I cannot keep using corn based ones they are too harmful?

In case I'm now very toxic in iron (since it is in so many foods and I have had no ceruloplasmin for months now), is IP-6 the best way to fix that? Does that get it out of the liver and brain, not just the cells where you want it?

What chelators did the people you mentioned use to cure themselves of iron and copper toxicity, and how much did they need? Would you be able to write a quick summary of what you know about chelation to fix these issues- namely poisoning by copper iron calcium manganese, and what chelators worked for people you know of in what doses and how much of other minerals they needed to take in to not get deficient in those? I would prefer not to use DMSA again cause it damages the liver and mine is really under stress rn. I think ALA is good for some minerals and it binds some copper but not very efficiently. what is an effective safe copper chelator besides these 2 and b2?

Also, and very importantly, do you think you could help me figure out what my calcium status is currently? That is a huge issue, since calcium toxicity blocks estrogen as you've said. I took in 40-60 grams too much calcium from diet during October which screwed me up, but since then I've mostly avoided it and taken 4g more DMSA, lots of ALA, lots of IP-6, lots of malic acid, lots of zinc and magnesium and manganese and tons of phosphorus. Was this enough to get rid of the excess calcium, or do I still l need to worry about it as a cause of suppressed estrogen? Does ALA chelate calcium out of the cells and body? What should someone with dietary calcium toxicity suppressing estrogen take to chelate the calcium out, without damaging their teeth and bone structure like EDTA does (I will never take that again)? And does sunbathing in these situations help or harm? Is having calcium deposits a sign of calcium toxicity that blocks estrogen, or is this only intracellular calcium that I need to worry about?

Also, which minerals will I want to replenish in my diet due to chelation? I think I should restrict iron copper calcium (but I'm not sure about this one) manganese and molybdenum, but keep consuming zinc magnesium sodium potassium selenium.

Basically just what you know about chelating to fix toxicities of iron copper calcium. A guide to doing it safely and properly and rapidly (over a couple weeks or less). Thank you!

Please help me, I am nearing the end of my rope here- my life is in danger of falling apart due to this. I don't think TEI is an option, for multiple reasons, but I also think I can fix all of this very quickly if I have the right information.







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The rest of this post is less important, but still is of value.:

My last couple days:
I did start chelation again last night with a lowish dose of ALA and a moderate dose of IP-6, and some ascorbic acid. It may have briefly increased my estrogen and adrenaline capacity a bit, though I could be wrong, and it hasn't lasted the next day. I think my bile flow returned again loudly during this chelation session while they were still in my blood, so either IP-6 or ALA chelates copper effectively.

And now, tonight I just started chelating again, I took several hundred milligrams ALA, and I heard a gargling sound now in my abdomen that may be bile release, though I cannot be certain. I had plenty of protein and potassium and sodium and food-vit C (kiwis) today, and selenium from fish, and magnesium from vegetables, but this stuff all contains iron copper and manganese (I had a lot of blackberries recently) as well. But I'm not sure if the gargling sounds, at least not so far. am I not using enough ALA, or is it already depleting me of other minerals and imbalancing me before I've even fixed my toxicities?


ALA inhibits the release of copper and other metals in bile, but I'm not releasing minerals in bile anyways right now I think, so it is the onyl way I'm getting these out. Cutler effectively claimed on more than one occasion that the chelators he recommended did not affect the status of nutritional minerals for that reason. I know from many experiences now, my own and others, that that is bullshit. I know it chelates zinc and magnesium, it did both for me, and there are rat studies where it chelates managense and selenium and probably iron and copper (but the study on the latter two was a bit less clear, can you confirm @Helen? Is ALA considered an antioxidant and good for the liver because it depletes the liver of iron and copper, and the brain as well?).



I made my earlier posts so detailed and long because I thought by including all of the important information that people would be able to help me figure out what minerals I was toxic in versus those I was still on the lower side in (the biggest question mark here is my current calcium status). This way, I could take lots of chelators to fix my toxicities, while taking in the minerals I was lower in since chelation would deplete them too. I would be back in balance. This is the only way I fixed myself from my similar imbalances last year,when I had too much zinc, magnesium, and temporarily copper multiple times (during the last couple months) etc, It was all through chelation. Only chelation will cure me, and many other people on this forum. In my last post I was hoping anyone here could tell me if the electrolytes protocol alongside high protein diet would work the same way as chelation only safer and better able to keep the body in balance, but since I have received no answer, I see no choice other than to just start chelating again for one last time, while making sure to replenish my electrolytes a lot, and a couple other minerals I am certain I'm not toxic in (zinc, magnesium), and hope that this will cure me- fix my copper, iron, managnese toxicities all together, and reopen my enzymes again.

In fact, It is very possible that in late november early december I did "cure" myself through chelation (from using DMSA again, and ALA in large doses, and Malic acid, and then IP-6) in that these fixed my copper and calcium toxicity only I also got too low in some other minerals from it, so I wasn't healed, and then I became toxic in copper and iron again (but not calcium?). I foolishly allowed myself to eat high copper foods a couple of times after chelation rounds in -Late november and early december, so that made me toxic in copper again. I will make sure to NEVER do this again until my ceruolplasmin is restored, because my copper is high enough that there's no way any amount of chelation that I will do could actually deplete me fully of it.

Multiple days in a row now I've had terrible chronic pain. This has been an on and off problem now for 3 and a half months. It comes from vitamin A (Even though I do a lot to minimize my intake), from gut infections and endotoxins, from tryptophan (which makes egg protein, whey, and most protein powders unworkable for me). When the pain is is occurring, it makes me want to die. But I have not given up yet. There are some very important things I need to accomplish in the next few years, and other people are depending on me, so I HAVE to fix this now. Very soon. The only way to do this is chelation, of one form or another. And it has to be very soon, or my body will take too much damage.

I suppose I might already have all the answers I need. I've been here before, only in less complex situations, with being toxic in a mineral (zinc, magnesium, and even copper) and chelation was what fixed me each time. ALA for zinc, DMSA (but too strong) for magnesium and copper (in november), and possibly calcium in november as well. I've got to just aggressively chelate, to get iron copper manganese and anything else out of the range of toxicity, but take in the other minerals to not get imbalanced that way. I'm just wondering what dosage I'll actually need for it to work.




I am not sure if the high protein is really helping me balance my minerals or not. Does its ability to do this depend on being able to make MT, glutathione, ceruloplasmin, etc? Because I can't make many or all of those proteins right now.

People here weren't reading my posts very thoroughly when they said I am sure to get better over time just because I'm young. Age is just a number, and young people only tend to be healthier and less likely to die because they usually have not been eating food, taking multivitamins, being poisoned, etc for enough years to become severely imbalanced, which is what kills you. But we know for a fact that my body is severely imbalanced. From DMSA, even though I took it the way you are supposed to, and screwing up the aftermath of becoming anemic and copper deficient from DMSA due to a complete lack of detailed information about this anywhere, despite some mention of this happening to others ("devastating cases of chronic low copper from DMSA"). I am probably only still alive because I eat such a clean diet and have a strong reason to live and I know roughly how to get out of this from my experience last year. Healing is far from a certainty from this point. And I have to heal soon, or I might not live long enough. That's what it sure feels like whenever I have my now near-daily bought of pain.

Read about people who poison themselves with mineral supplements or diets imbalanced to have way too much of one mineral (eg the carnivore diet- leads to zinc poisoning which does almost exactly to a person what finasteride does- turns you into an emotionless castrated zombie). Do you see any of their bodies naturally fixing this imbalance once it gets to the point where they've lost multiple bodily functions? No, NEVER. You see them not getting any better a year later, or several years later. Without use of the metal transporting proteins, and sweat and bile production, etc, then the body can never dump the mineral it is poisoned with faster than it gets more from food. This is the cause of most of the mysterious chronic health problems that respond to nothing that people have on places like the Ray Peat Forum, where they try all these different diets and get fixed by none of them, because they are toxic in a mineral or more, and if they don't chelate it out they will never be cured. It will never happen. They will keep accumulating more, and their enzymes will remain shut down, so their body won't work right, and infection, or food compounds like vit A, will eventually kill them. This is the hidden cause of disease. You will never find it on any standard test, even in HTMA these are usually hidden. The body just seems to shut down many different enzymes (different ones for different minerals you are toxic in- each mineral has a unique toxicity profile, but one that is not well described by the symptoms of toxicity listed in medical textbooks that doctors blindly parrot) when it has more than a certain amount of a given mineral.

One of the reasons mercury is so dangerous and life-shortening is because it promotes the overaccumulation of minerals in this manner (hence commonplace copper toxicity alongside mercury poisoning), for instance by forcing people to eat far more food (and thus more minerals, while being unable to use them) for their body size becuase of insulin resistance, SIBO, etc. This is why I almost got trapped permanently last year from magnesium toxicity- I took in too much from my diet cause I had to eat calories needed for someone substantially larger than me. I am glad at least to now be free of mercury and magnesium toxicity (thanks to DMSA), though the aftermath now is costing me greatly.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
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#20
You are going from one extreme to another. Not sure how you want to archive any balance like this. It wont be 2g of b1 or 10g of calcium that will be your instant cure.

If you think you improved,I would say to do nothing. Just normal food for at least 4 weeks. Thats the only sane option imo. I doubt any tests at this moment are reliable.
 
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