Saw Palmetto sufferer Log *Hair Test included

Goose12

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#81
Are you finding any other benefits and improvements since doing another R ANDRO run? I have some R ANDRO but its from 2016? Hoping it is still good to use. I have tried to keep them at a fairly cool temp and out of sunlight.

To be honest with this little insomnia blip I am going through I feel like I am leaning towards TEI again. For me it has just been much less of a rollercoaster than anything else I have tried and I feel much better mentally. I work a lot and I have two kids/family life so there isn't always much time for being all over the place!

My sensitivity is not too much of an issue I don't think... the worst for me is I have developed P.E. I never used to have an issue with this! I know a lot of guys have issues the other way around where they can't orgasm so I guess I am thankful for that, however, the orgasms aren't like they used to be. Hard to describe.

Ill look into the Keto thing!
I got slight improvements from my 4th run but I don't think I waited long enough between cycles and I will and androvar. My third cycle after tei I noticed huge improvements sexually to the point I thought that one more cycle would cure me.

On my third cycle I did androhard, potassium, and keto on the snap back. I think this helped a lot. I believe both allows estrogen to comeback before dht could inhibit it. Wish I could get my hands on Randro. The snap back is much better over epiandro.

The idea behind randro is it will down regulate our dht, also works on gaba, and seems to be beneficial for the liver.

Your Randro should be fine.

I think tei would be much easier than and andro cycle if life is in the way. I get extreme fatigue on cycle. The first two weeks are great and then I feel terrible after estrogen is completely crushed and it takes almost two and a half weeks for it to come back on line. Not fun at all.

Like you I have never had an issue having orgasms. Also my orgasms felt terrible. Not enjoyable at all. Tei and Randro helped with that. Most of the time orgasms are pre saw.
 

5 alpha

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Oct 3, 2017
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#82
I usually take a quarter teaspoon of potassium chloride with whey protein. It works better with protein. Two years ago when I went all out on it I noticed better digestion and sleep that stuck. Right now I am noticing more sensitivety and better sleep. Helen has mentioned it increases estrogen receptors.

Right now on low carb I am just taking it with a meal and I am taking half a teaspoon, twice a day. That's around 30% of rda. It's my first time doing it this way.

Nice so powder potassium is the way to go?

I’m trying to load it for a few days to see what happened’s. Helen recommended 3g’ of potassium. I have potassium pills from GNC. I took thirty 99mg pills to get up to the 3 grams. 1000 mg equals one gram. Something about taking thirty pills of anything just feels wrong haha ....

I just had a smoothie with protein seeing they you said it goes good with potassium.

The point about potassium activities estrogen receptors is interesting. I guess it makes trying potassium that much more promising. I tested low in 3b-adiol once which activates estrogen receptors. I was wondering at one point if all Saw P-PFS people are low in 3b-adiol which could possibly explain why we react badly to inhibiting estrogen. But I checked over on PH in an old thread where a Saw P-PFS guy had his 3b-adiol tested and it was normal.

I’m combining the RU with potassium to see what happens. Helen said potassium can up regulate AR and I suspect that when the RU blocks my AR receptors they are getting up regulated so it seems like a good combo.
 
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MNK99

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Goose12

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#83
Nice so powder potassium is the way to go?

I’m trying to load it for a few days to see what happened’s. Helen recommended 3g’ of potassium. I have potassium pills from GNC. I took thirty 99mg pills to get up to the 3 grams. 1000 mg equals one gram. Something about taking thirty pills of anything just feels wrong haha ....

I just had a smoothie with protein seeing they you said it goes good with potassium.

The point about potassium activities estrogen receptors is interesting. I guess it makes trying potassium that much more promising. I tested low in 3b-adiol once which activates estrogen receptors. I was wondering at one point if all Saw P-PFS people are low in 3b-adiol which could possibly explain why we react badly to inhibiting estrogen. But I checked over on PH in an old thread where a Saw P-PFS guy had his 3b-adiol tested and it was normal.

I’m combining the RU with potassium to see what happens. Helen said potassium can up regulate AR and I suspect that when the RU blocks my AR receptors they are getting up regulated so it seems like a good combo.
I have the powder. I mix it with a little water and drink it. Try not to get it on your teeth and rinse your mouth after.

I did good on ru. It helped a lot with digestion, anxiety, and sleep and most of it stuck. I was still far from cured though. Others couldn't replicate my success and it only got me so far and stopped working. I don't recommend it.

Tei, and CD's herbs with andro are the best things I have tried. You can throw keto and potassium in with CD's protocol. Herbs that I get the most out of are he shou Wu, tribulus, pine pollen, pine pollen tincture, ashwagandha, bulbine, cistanchi, tongkat Ali, and eleuthero.
 

Olski69

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May 11, 2018
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#84
Interesting...

The Apr1989 high dose Trib protocol I never tried. When the case of JQD came out on PH I was the first following his thread. He recommended tons of different ways to get hormone replacement to work. At one point he recommended high dose Trib cycles. I tried it for one day and got immediately worse so I stopped. Shortly after JQD recommended the high dose Trib cycles in his thread I noticed that the new user Apr1989 posted his high dose Trib protocol for the first time. I always wondered if JQD was Apr1989 and it he made a duplicate username Apr1989 to try to get people to try his high dose Trib protocol because people would always give him shit about everything he advised to try. Just a hunch wouldn’t give it too much thought.

Your point about your estrogen remaining low despite having normal T levels on TRT post Saw P-PFS is interesting. What were your exact T and estrogen levels while on TRT ? Despite being Saw P-PFS I can’t say that I seen similar patterns in my labs. My estrogen was never flagged low or on the low side. It also always increased when my T increased on clomid and on herb cycling. Did not get my estrogen tested for the very brief period of time I was on androgel but have no reason to believe that my blood level estrogen was remaining low while on androgel.

Helen said recently if I remember correctly that Saw P acts as an AI....

When he said this it has crossed my mind that maybe we are in this PFS like state because we are sensitive to inhibiting estrogen. Not DHT...

The fact that I took Dutasteride for a month with absolutely no problems to treat my inflamed prostate when I was 22 suggests this is the case. Than at 26 I take a product from GNC containing Saw P and get smashed followed by getting smashed even harder with a second round of Saw P at 29.

So maybe we have an AI induced enzyme disorder that has similar symptoms too PFS.

Another possibility is that what we all have in common seems to be high natural DHT levels prior to getting Saw P-PFS. With this being said maybe if we inhibited estrogen from taking Saw P it made our DHT no longer work ? Is this possible I don’t know. I think Helen has posted in the past about DHT needed estrogen to work or other way around. Can’t remember though. Could be wrong about this.

What do you take for sleep during these times anything ?
Sorry I meant that on TRT my E2 came up into range and it has stayed that way once coming off too.

I have always believed estrogen plays a large role in our condition, I would be interested to read @Helen 's thoughts on the AI side of things. I'll have to dig it up in the forum search.

During these shit times for sleep I have learnt to just role with it to be honest. There doesn't seem to be much out there that helps me naturally. Magnesium used to help but then stopped, Bone broth initally helped then gave me terrible insomnia. I have tried all the Valerian stuff etc and that did nothing. TEI and raising my estrogen are the only things that seemed to balance me out and get me sleeping better again. For the first few years of PFS I would maybe get 3 hours a night, sometimes 3 hours every two days. It was really hardcore. Luckily I had my partner who helped me through it. These were the times when I had extremely low E2.

When I cant sleep now I usually make a weird warm drink. Chopped bananas in a cup, boiling water, little bit of honey, oat milk, dash of cinnamon. Helps to calm my brain down.
 

5 alpha

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Oct 3, 2017
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#85
Sorry I meant that on TRT my E2 came up into range and it has stayed that way once coming off too.

I have always believed estrogen plays a large role in our condition, I would be interested to read @Helen 's thoughts on the AI side of things. I'll have to dig it up in the forum search.

During these shit times for sleep I have learnt to just role with it to be honest. There doesn't seem to be much out there that helps me naturally. Magnesium used to help but then stopped, Bone broth initally helped then gave me terrible insomnia. I have tried all the Valerian stuff etc and that did nothing. TEI and raising my estrogen are the only things that seemed to balance me out and get me sleeping better again. For the first few years of PFS I would maybe get 3 hours a night, sometimes 3 hours every two days. It was really hardcore. Luckily I had my partner who helped me through it. These were the times when I had extremely low E2.

When I cant sleep now I usually make a weird warm drink. Chopped bananas in a cup, boiling water, little bit of honey, oat milk, dash of cinnamon. Helps to calm my brain down.

Maybe try more magnesium ? The Dead Sea magnesium oil spray delivers a nice dose. Sometimes I use it and take the natural calm magnesium powder at the same time. Also the glycine powder. This is not my protocol . Don’t want to take credit for it haha .

Mix glycine powder with natural calm magnesium powder drink before sleep. Can also use a few sprays of magnesium oil. This is basically to help get to sleep. If that does not get me to sleep I’ll add in melatonin into the mix. Melatonin works but loses it effect real fast only after a couple nights that’s why it’s a once in a while add in. From here the herb ziziphus can help you get into deeper sleep but does not help you get to sleep . Ziziphus is amazing. It’s expansive though because you need a table spoon of it for it to work good. Lost empire herbs discontinued it though recently. Don’t know why ..

https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Supplements-Glycine-1000mg-Capsules/dp/B002J0RHTQ

https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Spray-100-Pure-Dead/dp/B00N48BNGK

Buy Ziziphus (100 grams) - Lost Empire Herbs

So is it correct that when you had low E you also had low T? If this is the case this would make sense because you had low T right ?

I thought you were saying you and walker both had low E despite having normal T which would suggest issue with testosterone converting to estrogen

It seems like our T still converts to estrogen but just does not work good once it’s converted which is why we get worse from inhibiting it. If it’s already not working with the receptors properly and then we give the receptors even less of it. Unless we had naturally high levels of estrogen prior to taking Saw P. Maybe we did have naturally high levels of estrogen prior to Saw P kinda like how we prob had naturally high levels of DHT. My golf ball size prostate at 22 years old, the nasty acne I use to get, the thick dark body hair all sounds like high DHT. And we sure as hell know the only reason I have a almost full head of hair at 35 is because I don’t respond to my Hormones.

If I remember correctly what Helen said a while back something about the way DHT and estrogen interact. I just can’t remember.
 
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Helen

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#87
Maybe try more magnesium ? The Dead Sea magnesium oil spray delivers a nice dose. Sometimes I use it and take the natural calm magnesium powder at the same time. Also the glycine powder. This is not my protocol . Don’t want to take credit for it haha .

Mix glycine powder with natural calm magnesium powder drink before sleep. Can also use a few sprays of magnesium oil. This is basically to help get to sleep. If that does not get me to sleep I’ll add in melatonin into the mix. Melatonin works but loses it effect real fast only after a couple nights that’s why it’s a once in a while add in. From here the herb ziziphus can help you get into deeper sleep but does not help you get to sleep . Ziziphus is amazing. It’s expansive though because you need a table spoon of it for it to work good. Lost empire herbs discontinued it though recently. Don’t know why ..

https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Supplements-Glycine-1000mg-Capsules/dp/B002J0RHTQ

https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Spray-100-Pure-Dead/dp/B00N48BNGK

Buy Ziziphus (100 grams) - Lost Empire Herbs

So is it correct that when you had low E you also had low T? If this is the case this would make sense because you had low T right ?

I thought you were saying you and walker both had low E despite having normal T which would suggest issue with testosterone converting to estrogen

It seems like our T still converts to estrogen but just does not work once it’s converted which is why we get worse from inhibiting it. Unless we had naturally high levels of estrogen prior to taking Saw P. Maybe we did have naturally high levels of estrogen prior to Saw P kinda like how we prob had naturally high levels of DHT. My golf ball size prostate at 22 years old, the nasty acne I use to get, the thick dark body hair all sounds like high DHT. And we sure as hell know the only reason I have a almost full head of hair at 35 is because I don’t respond to my Hormones.

you had low test 350 and low everything else since your body was suppressing LH.


LH suppresion can come from several places. From estrogen, it doe snot have to be high,it could be sensitive. and thus test will not convert into it.

It can be from strong AR. DHT

it also can be from cortisol side.
 
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blindsided

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Oct 9, 2017
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#88
You can get R Andro if you have internet access. Go to Ebay. As far as I know that stuff was manufactured in 2015/2016 and I have no clue how long it is effective, but you can get it.

Plenty of people, including myself, tried the megadose Trib experiment over at SolvePFS (when it existed). As far as I know, nobody was able to achieve results close to APR. It didn't do much for me at the time. BUT that was early on in my PFS journey and my body was still all over the place trying to find some balance. Perhaps it would be different now if I tried again. Good luck to anyone trying this route.
 
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Olski69

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#89
@Olski69 what are your dht and shbg levels ( I might have already ask this). Even with estrogen in range it might not be balanced.
I do not have recent DHT bloods. The last time they were taken was probably last year, unfortunately my desktop computer died the other day with all of my files on. In the process of getting it repaired.

I do know however that my DHT is usually around 1.6 nmol/l (0.3-2.0). I will be getting some new bloods done eventually but I am trying to do everything through the NHS rather than buying private tests as its quite expensive.
 
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Olski69

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#90
So I know believe that it was the Tribulus that gave me an adverse reaction. I have not felt like that in quite a long time. Initially I felt better, more warmth to genitals and calmer, day after I started to feel a crash, bad bad sleep for a couple of days after and general malaise and mild depression.

My last TEI cycle I was taking a lot of Zinc which has been one of the main things that has helped me. I decided as an experiment to take some Zinc before bed as it has aided my sleep in the past. I took 15 mg.

Sleep onset was much easier again, I dreamed and quite deeply and I also had some nocturnals and morning wood which was non existent after the Trib.

I have no idea what any of this means but today I am feeling a little fatigued but clear headed. Whether it is the fact I managed to get some quality sleep or just solely the zinc I do not know.
 

Olski69

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#91
I just came across this study ''Dietary Zinc Deficiency Alters 5a-Reduction and Aromatization of Testosterone and Androgen and Estrogen Receptors in Rat Liver1''


I know this does not necessarily apply to humans but if it did it could explain why I feel better much much better on Zinc?

''formation of DHT from testosterone was significantly lower in zinc-deficient rats compared with both control groups''


''Furthermore, hepatic 5a-reductase activity is decreased in animals fed a zinc-deficient diet, indicating that zinc is essential for hepatic 5a-reductase activity.''

I know that there are others out there that feel better on Zinc, however, I feel like this is just a crutch to the situation as it is proven with myself when stopping I eventually return to baseline.

https://watermark.silverchair.com/j...AdeOySI67MtT6ogXs1Vm6g3zmLvBi6BHOg8RhbtmnMaYK
 

Goose12

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#92
I just came across this study ''Dietary Zinc Deficiency Alters 5a-Reduction and Aromatization of Testosterone and Androgen and Estrogen Receptors in Rat Liver1''


I know this does not necessarily apply to humans but if it did it could explain why I feel better much much better on Zinc?

''formation of DHT from testosterone was significantly lower in zinc-deficient rats compared with both control groups''


''Furthermore, hepatic 5a-reductase activity is decreased in animals fed a zinc-deficient diet, indicating that zinc is essential for hepatic 5a-reductase activity.''

I know that there are others out there that feel better on Zinc, however, I feel like this is just a crutch to the situation as it is proven with myself when stopping I eventually return to baseline.

https://watermark.silverchair.com/j...AdeOySI67MtT6ogXs1Vm6g3zmLvBi6BHOg8RhbtmnMaYK
I think it's a crutch also. Probably need copper even though I feel terrible on it. I have low copper to zinc ratio on hair.
 
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Olski69

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#93
I’ve been having a return of some old symptoms. Sleep is terrible again, Its pretty shitty! I had thought I had fixed this. Trialing Tribulus seemed to really mess with me.
I am awaiting another hair test and getting back on TEI but also tempted to run an R Andro cycle. However, I only have 3 bottles of R Andro and want to make them count. I am currently so weak and my sleep is so poor I wonder if it is best to wait till I’m more stable before hand.
im also getting some anxiety, especially at nights. I haven’t felt this in a long long time.

I don’t want to scare people off taking Tribulus. It has worked for many with with this condition but all I can say is that it is the only thing to negatively effect my condition in a long time.
hoping to get levelled out again as these 2 hour sleepless nights are pretty crippling.

Anyway, gotta press on.
 
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Trump_1776

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#94
I usually take a quarter teaspoon of potassium chloride with whey protein. It works better with protein. Two years ago when I went all out on it I noticed better digestion and sleep that stuck. Right now I am noticing more sensitivety and better sleep. Helen has mentioned it increases estrogen receptors.

Right now on low carb I am just taking it with a meal and I am taking half a teaspoon, twice a day. That's around 30% of rda. It's my first time doing it this way.
You still doing potassium?
 

Olski69

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May 11, 2018
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#96
So I’ve just had my hair test results back.
Still a slow one. Unfortunately my computer died so Apologies if the upload from my phone does not work. Going to get a new one in the sales I think!

These are still the same recommenced supps as I have had previously however now on my notes it stated to try and increase foods with B1.
I had some at home which I had briefly tried a small dose of 100mg and it didn’t make me feel that great so I shelved it. Anyway, I thought what the hell, and took 300mg.
Later on my brain felt alive and my muscles for the first time in a long time of this illness felt pumped, when I did press ups I got a pump from it. Before now my muscles have just been so flat and weak which has been an issue in working out for me. I had energy!
a

Anyway, needless to say my sleep was shit that night and last night which is really frustrating. It’s a bit like @Goose12 has mentioned before when he tried it. I guess this is a similar R Andro effect. No sleep is making me feel depressed mentally and weak and low so I’m back to square one.

It’s hard to know for me whether it was solely the B1 or the vitamin e in combo as I never react well to vitamin e either. Vitamin E feels like castration for me. Similar to what saw palmetto initially did, no blood flow etc so I am hesitant to take it.


I do believe in TEI but I feel the vitamin e just destroys me Estrogen. I have been reading that a lot of people are looking into some 4 Andro routes. Maybe that is somewhere to go next for me?

I’ll have nearly had this illness for 6 years now. I’m determined to make this year the last. I’m turning 30, lost my twenties to this. I’m not letting it take my 30’s too.
 

Goose12

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#98
So I’ve just had my hair test results back.
Still a slow one. Unfortunately my computer died so Apologies if the upload from my phone does not work. Going to get a new one in the sales I think!

These are still the same recommenced supps as I have had previously however now on my notes it stated to try and increase foods with B1.
I had some at home which I had briefly tried a small dose of 100mg and it didn’t make me feel that great so I shelved it. Anyway, I thought what the hell, and took 300mg.
Later on my brain felt alive and my muscles for the first time in a long time of this illness felt pumped, when I did press ups I got a pump from it. Before now my muscles have just been so flat and weak which has been an issue in working out for me. I had energy!
a

Anyway, needless to say my sleep was shit that night and last night which is really frustrating. It’s a bit like @Goose12 has mentioned before when he tried it. I guess this is a similar R Andro effect. No sleep is making me feel depressed mentally and weak and low so I’m back to square one.

It’s hard to know for me whether it was solely the B1 or the vitamin e in combo as I never react well to vitamin e either. Vitamin E feels like castration for me. Similar to what saw palmetto initially did, no blood flow etc so I am hesitant to take it.


I do believe in TEI but I feel the vitamin e just destroys me Estrogen. I have been reading that a lot of people are looking into some 4 Andro routes. Maybe that is somewhere to go next for me?

I’ll have nearly had this illness for 6 years now. I’m determined to make this year the last. I’m turning 30, lost my twenties to this. I’m not letting it take my 30’s too.
That's exactly how I feel on vitamin e. Destroys my estrogen and takes over two weeks to snap back. I think you should just stay on tei and focus on eating clean. Adding beans and beet juice to your diet helps. Anything good for your liver seems to help the most.

I plan on experimenting with 4 andro and liver beneficial supplements. If I make any break throughs I will let you know. Focusing on the liver seems to be the key for us.
 
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Olski69

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#99
That's exactly how I feel on vitamin e. Destroys my estrogen and takes over two weeks to snap back. I think you should just stay on tei and focus on eating clean. Adding beans and beet juice to your diet helps. Anything good for your liver seems to help the most.

I plan on experimenting with 4 andro and liver beneficial supplements. If I make any break throughs I will let you know. Focusing on the liver seems to be the key for us.
d

do you think it is vital as part of my TEI recommenced supps to take vitamin e? It is literally the only thing that destroys me in such a terrible way. I know you aren’t meant to feel great whilst on cycle but I wonder if it’s doing more damage than good in our case.
i

I remember there was some guy called douglasmich who had PFS from saw palmetto. I believe he got much worse when trying anti estrogens. Sadly I think he passed away.
 

Goose12

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d

do you think it is vital as part of my TEI recommenced supps to take vitamin e? It is literally the only thing that destroys me in such a terrible way. I know you aren’t meant to feel great whilst on cycle but I wonder if it’s doing more damage than good in our case.
i

I remember there was some guy called douglasmich who had PFS from saw palmetto. I believe he got much worse when trying anti estrogens. Sadly I think he passed away.
I really don't know. I always felt better after the snap back and I believe @Walker took vitamin e supplements while on CD protocol.

Even though vitamin e blocks estrogen it is beneficial to the liver and that's what we need to eventually cure ourselves. I never felt that vitamin e lowered my baseline after the snap back from it.
 
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