Saw Palmetto sufferer Log *Hair Test included

jacknap

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2017
574
304
63
#61
I’m 6’7” - and I did get worse when blocking E. I’ve said multiple times on SS and here, most of my PFS/SP symptoms all aligned with low E during my recovery. Usually if I drank a beer or took 4-Andro I always felt great cause of the pro-Estrogenic activity.
I'm the same when I drink beer and my 4 andro cycle I felt glorious.
 

5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
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#62
this has been mentioned before and yeah maxout is like 6'7 I think. I'm 6'0 and I think english was 6'0 as well and entropy. still on the tallish side
Interesting ....

Obviously not just tell people get this condition but it almost seems like a higher majority of people with hight who take these things develop problems. We obviously don’t have enough info to know this for sure but how many 6 plus footers are out their yet we have ended up here haha
 
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MNK99

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Nov 6, 2017
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International Waters - Whaling
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#63
im 6'0 but you guys who are 6'4 etc.. 6'7, i mean lots of you are vikings and like slavic or russian etc. so you guys are like tall genetically.... know what im saying?
ALSO we's in america canada and other countries, europe... idk correlation -causation. but yeah, im not super tall, but my wingspan, shoulders are huge with zero workouts. back and ribcage too. (had to and still do... even out things with training tho).

also don't you see a respondent bias. if i was 4'1 i would not respond.

but yes my estrogen was zero i was full psychopath after fasting and on randro. i was crazier than stud but not as gay.

i was like 6'3 w spiky ass hair. if i straighten my knees ill be 6'5. i will be avenged. my personality's 10 feet tall tho.
 
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RebelWithACause

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Jan 20, 2018
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The Netherlands
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#64
im 6'0 but you guys who are 6'4 etc.. 6'7, i mean lots of you are vikings and like slavic or russian etc. so you guys are like tall genetically.... know what im saying?
ALSO we's in america canada and other countries, europe... idk correlation -causation. but yeah, im not super tall, but my wingspan, shoulders are huge with zero workouts. back and ribcage too. (had to and still do... even out things with training tho).

also don't you see a respondent bias. if i was 4'1 i would not respond.

but yes my estrogen was zero i was full psychopath after fasting and on randro. i was crazier than stud but not as gay.
I'm 4'1 fuck you guys
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,593
2,144
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31
Boston, MA
#65
I’m 5’8, saw Bizbee was like 5’4. Doubt height has anything to do with it. All about the internal environment prior to taking the pill.
 

MNK99

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Nov 6, 2017
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International Waters - Whaling
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5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
203
43
#68
I’m 5’8, saw Bizbee was like 5’4. Doubt height has anything to do with it. All about the internal environment prior to taking the pill.

Yea for certain. What I’m suggesting though is height may be a contributing factor in that “perfect storm” environment but not a necessary element in the “perfect storm” environment.
 

Olski69

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
70
26
18
30
UK
#69
Okay so update,

I was doing a bit better on all fronts after my last TEI cycle however after a period of extreme stress, I have got bad again.

TEI had me taking numerous supps on my last cycle. MIN-PLEX B and the adrenal supps seem to be the ones that make me feel much better mentally.

I am currently not cycling any supps.

Unfortunately I have been diagnosed with AUTOIMMUNE NEUTROPENIA and I am going back for more testing. Since crashing all those years ago I have had low WBC's and its taken them to this point to look into this! NHS for you. It explains all of the ravaging inflammation I was having around my heart, guts, prostate etc.

Anyway, as we know people with PFS have gotten better through healthy lifestyle, particularly gut health. I think that is why it has been a bit of a battle for me as the slightest thing would throw me right back (mould exposue, stomach flu's, food poisoning etc) My body has too little WBC's to fight anything.

I have just bought some of the Mediherb Tribulus to trial, I took half a pill yesterday. Felt warmth to the genitals and generally better for a brief period but today feel crap. Feeling quite depressed and numb a little like when I first crashed so I am hesitant to try it again.

Like other Saw Palmetto users, anything that lowers Estrogen makes me feel awful so I wonder if Tribulus does this?

Unsure what to do at this point, I have been reading 5 alpha's log and his use with RU which interests me but maybe it is not advisable giving my Autoimmune condition.
 

Olski69

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
70
26
18
30
UK
#70
Okay so I had a terrible nights sleep. Did not sleep a minute. Did Tribulus do this to anyone else? I haven't slept this badly in quite a while. It was literally impossible to enter sleep. Weirdly, when I have these nights with no sleep, the day after I usually have more blood flow down below. I have no idea why this is.
 

Walker

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
679
971
93
30
Mountain Brook, AL
#71
Okay so update,

I was doing a bit better on all fronts after my last TEI cycle however after a period of extreme stress, I have got bad again.

TEI had me taking numerous supps on my last cycle. MIN-PLEX B and the adrenal supps seem to be the ones that make me feel much better mentally.

I am currently not cycling any supps.

Unfortunately I have been diagnosed with AUTOIMMUNE NEUTROPENIA and I am going back for more testing. Since crashing all those years ago I have had low WBC's and its taken them to this point to look into this! NHS for you. It explains all of the ravaging inflammation I was having around my heart, guts, prostate etc.

Anyway, as we know people with PFS have gotten better through healthy lifestyle, particularly gut health. I think that is why it has been a bit of a battle for me as the slightest thing would throw me right back (mould exposue, stomach flu's, food poisoning etc) My body has too little WBC's to fight anything.

I have just bought some of the Mediherb Tribulus to trial, I took half a pill yesterday. Felt warmth to the genitals and generally better for a brief period but today feel crap. Feeling quite depressed and numb a little like when I first crashed so I am hesitant to try it again.

Like other Saw Palmetto users, anything that lowers Estrogen makes me feel awful so I wonder if Tribulus does this?

Unsure what to do at this point, I have been reading 5 alpha's log and his use with RU which interests me but maybe it is not advisable giving my Autoimmune condition.
Tribulus should increase estrogen, not lower it. Trib always made me feel better during PFS, and does the same for @Goose12 if I remember correctly.
 

Olski69

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
70
26
18
30
UK
#72
Tribulus should increase estrogen, not lower it. Trib always made me feel better during PFS, and does the same for @Goose12 if I remember correctly.
I haven't written Tribulus off yet. I purchased the Mediherb brand so I know it is of good quality. I did take it the same day as some adrenal supps as I was feeling fatigued. These normally do not have a negative effect on me but maybe the combination of this and Tribulus was not a good mix. I did do some reading on others experiences and there was someone on Propeciahelp who had a similar reaction. Fuck I hate that website! Reminded me of the dark days reading all that crap and misery.

My sleep issues got much better from TEI and I was doing okay. This downturn with sleep reminded me of when I first crashed and also when I took Bone Broth many years ago. Initially Bone Broth helped sleep but then it messed me up. I think it may have been a glutamate reaction.? When I tried taking it again I had a bad reaction again.

........ It basically feels like I've just snorted a mountain of cocaine. I close my eyes and it is like my brain is racing at 1000mph.

Things that have helped me briefly with this condition over the years:
  • Cabergoline- brought back spontaneous erections after a small trial many years ago. Wore off. Discontinued

  • LDN - Helped my sleep? Also brought back the spontaneous erections occasionally. Seemed to need to be cycled to keep effect. Discontinued. Cabergoline and LDN only things to bring back spontaneous erections.

  • HCG and Testosterone- First few days felt like I was going to recover. The day after I woke with morning wood like before, had amazing first few orgasms. TRT and HCG never brought back spontaneous erections. Discontinued as effects wore off and all I was left with was raging anxiety. E2 was in range.


  • CD's Herbs- gained some ground but did not seem to stick. ( I may revisit this)

  • TEI- TEI Has probably been the best thing for me in regards to mental sides and digestion. It has helped support my sleep and got rid of sinus issues. Some days when I walk outside and take a deep breath I can almost feel like the cool fresh air is rushing through my brain. Like someone opened the door into my head, it is hard to describe but when you have been stuck in a PFS brain mode for so long it feels so good. I will say that I have my off days too but the improvement gives me hope.

I have obviously tried other things but I have only noted stuff that has had a significant affect. This condition is just so frustrating because I make improvement but it never stabilises. Where I go backwards usually coincides with getting ill. Now I know that I have a low immune system maybe this is the thing thats holding me back.

TEI is the best thing I have tried so far although it has not helped much sexually. I stopped TEI after 4 rounds (shamefully I have not posted all results on here) as finances were not permitting me to carry on. I am tempted to just go back on TEI although I do have some R ANDRO that I am tempted to try as a last resort.

What is strange for me is that I am so hairy and keep growing more hair and losing head hair yet I cannot put on muscle and easily waste, I am tall with no body fat at all. You would think that sounds like high DHT.
 

5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
203
43
#73
Okay so update,

I was doing a bit better on all fronts after my last TEI cycle however after a period of extreme stress, I have got bad again.

TEI had me taking numerous supps on my last cycle. MIN-PLEX B and the adrenal supps seem to be the ones that make me feel much better mentally.

I am currently not cycling any supps.

Unfortunately I have been diagnosed with AUTOIMMUNE NEUTROPENIA and I am going back for more testing. Since crashing all those years ago I have had low WBC's and its taken them to this point to look into this! NHS for you. It explains all of the ravaging inflammation I was having around my heart, guts, prostate etc.

Anyway, as we know people with PFS have gotten better through healthy lifestyle, particularly gut health. I think that is why it has been a bit of a battle for me as the slightest thing would throw me right back (mould exposue, stomach flu's, food poisoning etc) My body has too little WBC's to fight anything.

I have just bought some of the Mediherb Tribulus to trial, I took half a pill yesterday. Felt warmth to the genitals and generally better for a brief period but today feel crap. Feeling quite depressed and numb a little like when I first crashed so I am hesitant to try it again.

Like other Saw Palmetto users, anything that lowers Estrogen makes me feel awful so I wonder if Tribulus does this?

Unsure what to do at this point, I have been reading 5 alpha's log and his use with RU which interests me but maybe it is not advisable giving my Autoimmune condition.
I noticed you said after recent extreme stress you got worse. I have noticed this as well. Mentally I deal with stress just as good but if deff makes PFS worse. This makes it seem like cortisol or an abnormal reaction to cortisol is involved.

The only time I had a problem with trib was when I followed JQD’s thing he was doing at one point when he was mega dosing trib. I mega dosed it for one day and got worse. Exactly as you describe. I don’t contribute this to Trib reducing estrogen. Trib is not decreasing estrogen. The most likely explanation is if it was good quality Trib you got a boost in LH resulting in a boost of testosterone and the reaction to testosterone made you feel that way. In other words the same thing would probable happen if you just took testosterone.

Personally when I take Trib for a day and move onto the next herb I don’t react badly to it. I don’t react badly to having good natural levels from herb cycling. But I don’t necessarily react good to it either. My insensitivity to cortisol seems equal to your insensitivity to the boot in T from the Trib. The best thing to do is probable let it rise gradually through herb cycling and compare that to how you feel when it’s just lower

Nothing easy about figuring this out. It’s a pain in the ass. It’s. Twisted to think that we may be better off with just low hormones. It’s fucked up
 
Likes: Olski69

5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
203
43
#74
I haven't written Tribulus off yet. I purchased the Mediherb brand so I know it is of good quality. I did take it the same day as some adrenal supps as I was feeling fatigued. These normally do not have a negative effect on me but maybe the combination of this and Tribulus was not a good mix. I did do some reading on others experiences and there was someone on Propeciahelp who had a similar reaction. Fuck I hate that website! Reminded me of the dark days reading all that crap and misery.

My sleep issues got much better from TEI and I was doing okay. This downturn with sleep reminded me of when I first crashed and also when I took Bone Broth many years ago. Initially Bone Broth helped sleep but then it messed me up. I think it may have been a glutamate reaction.? When I tried taking it again I had a bad reaction again.

........ It basically feels like I've just snorted a mountain of cocaine. I close my eyes and it is like my brain is racing at 1000mph.

Things that have helped me briefly with this condition over the years:
  • Cabergoline- brought back spontaneous erections after a small trial many years ago. Wore off. Discontinued

  • LDN - Helped my sleep? Also brought back the spontaneous erections occasionally. Seemed to need to be cycled to keep effect. Discontinued. Cabergoline and LDN only things to bring back spontaneous erections.

  • HCG and Testosterone- First few days felt like I was going to recover. The day after I woke with morning wood like before, had amazing first few orgasms. TRT and HCG never brought back spontaneous erections. Discontinued as effects wore off and all I was left with was raging anxiety. E2 was in range.


  • CD's Herbs- gained some ground but did not seem to stick. ( I may revisit this)

  • TEI- TEI Has probably been the best thing for me in regards to mental sides and digestion. It has helped support my sleep and got rid of sinus issues. Some days when I walk outside and take a deep breath I can almost feel like the cool fresh air is rushing through my brain. Like someone opened the door into my head, it is hard to describe but when you have been stuck in a PFS brain mode for so long it feels so good. I will say that I have my off days too but the improvement gives me hope.

I have obviously tried other things but I have only noted stuff that has had a significant affect. This condition is just so frustrating because I make improvement but it never stabilises. Where I go backwards usually coincides with getting ill. Now I know that I have a low immune system maybe this is the thing thats holding me back.

TEI is the best thing I have tried so far although it has not helped much sexually. I stopped TEI after 4 rounds (shamefully I have not posted all results on here) as finances were not permitting me to carry on. I am tempted to just go back on TEI although I do have some R ANDRO that I am tempted to try as a last resort.

What is strange for me is that I am so hairy and keep growing more hair and losing head hair yet I cannot put on muscle and easily waste, I am tall with no body fat at all. You would think that sounds like high DHT.
Or at least being very overly sensitive to DHT. That’s what it seems like in my case. My receptors are down regulated because I am overly sensitive to hormones.

The point about TEI making you better in areas other than the ED sides. This has been my experience with CD’s protocol. Helps in all areas except. Main reason I don’t want to spend the money on TEI. Getting the minerals from CD’s herbs is probable better than getting them from supps. The herb cycling is not providing you specifically with what you are low in but obviously your body takes from the herbs what you are low in. That’s why I’m not fast to try TEI.
 

Olski69

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
70
26
18
30
UK
#75
Or at least being very overly sensitive to DHT. That’s what it seems like in my case. My receptors are down regulated because I am overly sensitive to hormones.

The point about TEI making you better in areas other than the ED sides. This has been my experience with CD’s protocol. Helps in all areas except. Main reason I don’t want to spend the money on TEI. Getting the minerals from CD’s herbs is probable better than getting them from supps. The herb cycling is not providing you specifically with what you are low in but obviously your body takes from the herbs what you are low in. That’s why I’m not fast to try TEI.

Another night of no sleep. I have cycled all of CD's herbs and never reacted like this to any of them. It was really weird how such a small half tab of Tribulus did this. Its the only thing I have done differently so I am adamant it was the Trib. I have not had this bad an episode of sleep in a year or more. It is complete wired but tired, also my tinnitus has got louder?

Have you read about Apr1989's Tribulus cycles? I wondered if you had tried that already rather than just cycling it amongst others.

For a couple of years after I first crashed my hormone levels were all fairly normal other than my E2 like @Walker was pretty much non existent and I felt like complete death because of it. I had a Dr who wanted to trail TRT which I hesitantly went along with. Like I mentioned before I had brief improvements but then faded and it was at that point I decided to quit listening to Dr's and listen to my own body and began on CD's programme.

I weaned off TRT and introduced the herb cycling as PCT. The strange thing is after coming off TRT my E2 levels have remained within the optimum range where as before TRT I had normal to high levels of testosterone but literally NO E2.

Have no idea why this happened but I am sure others on here will.
 

Goose12

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2017
786
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93
31
Cincinnati Ohio
#76
Another night of no sleep. I have cycled all of CD's herbs and never reacted like this to any of them. It was really weird how such a small half tab of Tribulus did this. Its the only thing I have done differently so I am adamant it was the Trib. I have not had this bad an episode of sleep in a year or more. It is complete wired but tired, also my tinnitus has got louder?

Have you read about Apr1989's Tribulus cycles? I wondered if you had tried that already rather than just cycling it amongst others.

For a couple of years after I first crashed my hormone levels were all fairly normal other than my E2 like @Walker was pretty much non existent and I felt like complete death because of it. I had a Dr who wanted to trail TRT which I hesitantly went along with. Like I mentioned before I had brief improvements but then faded and it was at that point I decided to quit listening to Dr's and listen to my own body and began on CD's programme.

I weaned off TRT and introduced the herb cycling as PCT. The strange thing is after coming off TRT my E2 levels have remained within the optimum range where as before TRT I had normal to high levels of testosterone but literally NO E2.

Have no idea why this happened but I am sure others on here will.
There is going to be up and downs until you are completely cured, it sucks having insomnia but don't focus on it. Maybe try starting tei again. It almost instantly helped with insomnia in my case. Other things that helped insomnia was snapback from Randro, ru, whey plus potassium, and low carb high fat.

I was the same way with tei as you. Best thing I have tried so far but very slow progress with sexual sides. It will be great to get back on when we are cured sexually, and I do believe tei would get us there eventually but it could be years.

I jumped on androhard after I stopped tei and had really good results sexually. I will have to add I was taking potassium on and off and did low carb on the snap back. I think these were just as important. The bad thing about Randro is you can get fatigue and anxiety on cycle.

Currently I am experimenting with keto and potassium. It might be a coincidence but sensitivity has shot up and I have been sleeping like a rock.

I watched an interesting testimonial on YouTube of a lady who had extremely low estrogen from using birth control most of her life and the only thing that got it back to normal was keto. I have experimented with it before and have had good results on the snap back. I have tried it that much because I was sticking with tei's diet.

The theory is all of the extra cholesterol will raise hormones and it's great for the liver. Also you can still cycle herbs.
 
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5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
203
43
#77
Another night of no sleep. I have cycled all of CD's herbs and never reacted like this to any of them. It was really weird how such a small half tab of Tribulus did this. Its the only thing I have done differently so I am adamant it was the Trib. I have not had this bad an episode of sleep in a year or more. It is complete wired but tired, also my tinnitus has got louder?

Have you read about Apr1989's Tribulus cycles? I wondered if you had tried that already rather than just cycling it amongst others.

For a couple of years after I first crashed my hormone levels were all fairly normal other than my E2 like @Walker was pretty much non existent and I felt like complete death because of it. I had a Dr who wanted to trail TRT which I hesitantly went along with. Like I mentioned before I had brief improvements but then faded and it was at that point I decided to quit listening to Dr's and listen to my own body and began on CD's programme.

I weaned off TRT and introduced the herb cycling as PCT. The strange thing is after coming off TRT my E2 levels have remained within the optimum range where as before TRT I had normal to high levels of testosterone but literally NO E2.

Have no idea why this happened but I am sure others on here will.
Interesting...

The Apr1989 high dose Trib protocol I never tried. When the case of JQD came out on PH I was the first following his thread. He recommended tons of different ways to get hormone replacement to work. At one point he recommended high dose Trib cycles. I tried it for one day and got immediately worse so I stopped. Shortly after JQD recommended the high dose Trib cycles in his thread I noticed that the new user Apr1989 posted his high dose Trib protocol for the first time. I always wondered if JQD was Apr1989 and it he made a duplicate username Apr1989 to try to get people to try his high dose Trib protocol because people would always give him shit about everything he advised to try. Just a hunch wouldn’t give it too much thought.

Your point about your estrogen remaining low despite having normal T levels on TRT post Saw P-PFS is interesting. What were your exact T and estrogen levels while on TRT ? Despite being Saw P-PFS I can’t say that I seen similar patterns in my labs. My estrogen was never flagged low or on the low side. It also always increased when my T increased on clomid and on herb cycling. Did not get my estrogen tested for the very brief period of time I was on androgel but have no reason to believe that my blood level estrogen was remaining low while on androgel.

Helen said recently if I remember correctly that Saw P acts as an AI....

When he said this it has crossed my mind that maybe we are in this PFS like state because we are sensitive to inhibiting estrogen. Not DHT...

The fact that I took Dutasteride for a month with absolutely no problems to treat my inflamed prostate when I was 22 suggests this is the case. Than at 26 I take a product from GNC containing Saw P and get smashed followed by getting smashed even harder with a second round of Saw P at 29.

So maybe we have an AI induced enzyme disorder that has similar symptoms too PFS.

Another possibility is that what we all have in common seems to be high natural DHT levels prior to getting Saw P-PFS. With this being said maybe if we inhibited estrogen from taking Saw P it made our DHT no longer work ? Is this possible I don’t know. I think Helen has posted in the past about DHT needed estrogen to work or other way around. Can’t remember though. Could be wrong about this.

What do you take for sleep during these times anything ?
 
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5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
454
203
43
#78
There is going to be up and downs until you are completely cured, it sucks having insomnia but don't focus on it. Maybe try starting tei again. It almost instantly helped with insomnia in my case. Other things that helped insomnia was snapback from Randro, ru, whey plus potassium, and low carb high fat.

I was the same way with tei as you. Best thing I have tried so far but very slow progress with sexual sides. It will be great to get back on when we are cured sexually, and I do believe tei would get us there eventually but it could be years.

I jumped on androhard after I stopped tei and had really good results sexually. I will have to add I was taking potassium on and off and did low carb on the snap back. I think these were just as important. The bad thing about Randro is you can get fatigue and anxiety on cycle.

Currently I am experimenting with keto and potassium. It might be a coincidence but sensitivity has shot up and I have been sleeping like a rock.

I watched an interesting testimonial on YouTube of a lady who had extremely low estrogen from using birth control most of her life and the only thing that got it back to normal was keto. I have experimented with it before and have had good results on the snap back. I have tried it that much because I was sticking with tei's diet.

The theory is all of the extra cholesterol will raise hormones and it's great for the liver. Also you can still cycle herbs.

Interesting feedback with the potassium. I’m about to try potassium for my first time today . How do you dose your potassium?
 

Olski69

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
70
26
18
30
UK
#79
There is going to be up and downs until you are completely cured, it sucks having insomnia but don't focus on it. Maybe try starting tei again. It almost instantly helped with insomnia in my case. Other things that helped insomnia was snapback from Randro, ru, whey plus potassium, and low carb high fat.

I was the same way with tei as you. Best thing I have tried so far but very slow progress with sexual sides. It will be great to get back on when we are cured sexually, and I do believe tei would get us there eventually but it could be years.

I jumped on androhard after I stopped tei and had really good results sexually. I will have to add I was taking potassium on and off and did low carb on the snap back. I think these were just as important. The bad thing about Randro is you can get fatigue and anxiety on cycle.

Currently I am experimenting with keto and potassium. It might be a coincidence but sensitivity has shot up and I have been sleeping like a rock.

I watched an interesting testimonial on YouTube of a lady who had extremely low estrogen from using birth control most of her life and the only thing that got it back to normal was keto. I have experimented with it before and have had good results on the snap back. I have tried it that much because I was sticking with tei's diet.

The theory is all of the extra cholesterol will raise hormones and it's great for the liver. Also you can still cycle herbs.

Are you finding any other benefits and improvements since doing another R ANDRO run? I have some R ANDRO but its from 2016? Hoping it is still good to use. I have tried to keep them at a fairly cool temp and out of sunlight.

To be honest with this little insomnia blip I am going through I feel like I am leaning towards TEI again. For me it has just been much less of a rollercoaster than anything else I have tried and I feel much better mentally. I work a lot and I have two kids/family life so there isn't always much time for being all over the place!

My sensitivity is not too much of an issue I don't think... the worst for me is I have developed P.E. I never used to have an issue with this! I know a lot of guys have issues the other way around where they can't orgasm so I guess I am thankful for that, however, the orgasms aren't like they used to be. Hard to describe.

Ill look into the Keto thing!
 

Goose12

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2017
786
926
93
31
Cincinnati Ohio
#80
Interesting feedback with the potassium. I’m about to try potassium for my first time today . How do you dose your potassium?
I usually take a quarter teaspoon of potassium chloride with whey protein. It works better with protein. Two years ago when I went all out on it I noticed better digestion and sleep that stuck. Right now I am noticing more sensitivety and better sleep. Helen has mentioned it increases estrogen receptors.

Right now on low carb I am just taking it with a meal and I am taking half a teaspoon, twice a day. That's around 30% of rda. It's my first time doing it this way.