Interesting protocol for restoring glutathione and functional vitamin B2. ( CFS)

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
On days (or mornings after) I do magnesium baths, I need to increase molybdenum. Either sulfate or magnesium is certainly opposing molybdenum in my case. Did bath this morning brain was amazing, but gut was dead after bath. Finally tripled my molybdenum dose at lunch and it just loosed that whole area of body up. This also happened this past Sunday into Monday.

Now will just go back to normal moly dose. But just throwing it out there if anyone is going to try these baths to accompany this protocol.
 

tanedout

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2017
602
362
63
Definitely starting to get low potassium symptoms with this (have a history of easily getting low potassium, and has been below range a few times on blood tests, but now I recognise when symptoms come on).

Added a bit of potassium chloride into the mix to see if that helps. I always get 2 side effects from potassium chloride however - 1) tinnitus gets a lot worse, and 2) is possibly it increases adrenaline or something as I'll get like an adrenaline hit if I get a fright, like my alarm clock rings and something in a movie makes you jump. Pretty annoying!
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Definitely starting to get low potassium symptoms with this (have a history of easily getting low potassium, and has been below range a few times on blood tests, but now I recognise when symptoms come on).

Added a bit of potassium chloride into the mix to see if that helps. I always get 2 side effects from potassium chloride however - 1) tinnitus gets a lot worse, and 2) is possibly it increases adrenaline or something as I'll get like an adrenaline hit if I get a fright, like my alarm clock rings and something in a movie makes you jump. Pretty annoying!
I haven’t mentioned this yet on forum but wrote to a couple people. Realized this in the last couple days. I’m on a NB program with 77mg a day of zinc. I believe zinc which retains potassium allows me to tolerate the protocol much better.

I’m upping potassium intake. I have this v8 veggie juice I’m using (w/ 500mg per serving!) and it’s helping me so much. Gut drink actually has a lot of potassium too.

Spoke to someone from the Facebook group... potassium is the biggest issue there. Greg wants people on chronometers to measure daily K intake. Nope, just get sufficient in zinc and have a good juice like v8 daily and include potassium in diet. Sweet potatoes, veggies, fruits, dairy. Your body will hang onto it pretty incredibly once you get sufficient in both zinc and Potassium.
 
Likes: tanedout

MCurtone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2019
234
206
43
Canada
Update:

No longer feeling any strange symptoms from my doses. I am taking Io/Se/Mo and B2 and Butyric Acid. I am taking quite large doses to be honest. My pee is vibrant yellow/green ever since adding the B2 a few days ago. I dose typically 2-3 times per day, 12 PM, 6 PM and 12 AM before sleep.

I am finding that my body is wanting to wake up earlier, but I can still force myself to sleep. My energy levels seem more consistent although they are not high.

I tried Butyrates a while back but stopped because they gave me intense fatigue and weakness, but now I am not experiencing that at all. I am taking the BodyBio Sodium Butyrate and will add in the BHB (ketones) very soon as well, including GHB.

I have not had ANY salt in over 2 weeks. I don't supplement with potassium either. I don't get heart palps, adrenaline feeling or racing mind, in fact I am super calm and in a good mood with good levels of patience. I've been on a strict carnivore diet, 90% raw, eating muscle meat, fat trimmings, raw honey and carbonated water (san pellegrino).

Raw meat is especially high in zinc and potassium, so maybe that's why I am not getting potassium depletion symptoms. I eat 1-2 pounds of raw meat per day.

This is the most stable I've been in a while. Hands and feet are sometimes cold, sometimes hot. When I first started the Io/Se/Mo I would get cold, but now it seems sometimes I warm up after taking, even on an empty stomach with no calories.

Sex drive is good, also practicing nofap. I have a good libido which is full of desire but it is grounded at the same time, so it doesn't drive me crazy yet I can let the animal inside loose if I wanted too.

I'm always focused on the mental sides, which I am still struggling with, like brain fog, emotions, passions and overall energy production.

Today I will be getting my hands on lamb liver, high in copper, vitamin a and b2. Based on TEI and my research, I am copper deficient, as are many people who do carnivore and develop histamine issues (iron overload & low copper).

These are exciting times and I hope many of us get over this in 2020. I will continue to update you all. Overall this protocol is going well, it's been just under 2 weeks.

Once I've reached 2-3 months, or maybe earlier depending how I feel, I will go directly at the gut and deal with the sibo once I know detox pathways are operational.
 
Likes: Maxin

Maxin

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2018
309
136
43
@Maxin, any response from Greg regarding increased hair loss due to his protocol?
@Maxin, any response from Greg regarding increased hair loss due to his protocol?
Yes I’ve seen others mention hair loss
when starting protocol. Here is one response I found. Also has some interesting info in hormones.

I had a conversation about #hormones and the protocol with GRJ and thought it might help others if I shared. The context was a discussion about my accelerated hair loss on the protocol. This is what he said:

“In order to make estrogen, you need an enzyme called aromatase, which is an enzyme that depends upon vitamin B2 as FAD. In severe B2 deficiency, people don't make enough estrogen, and in young, very active girls, who use up large amounts of B2, they don't cycle, nor develop secondary sexual characteristics, and they build up the precursor, testosterone. This potentially then gives them a competitive advantage due to higher testosterone. It also means that in low functional B2, women will stop cycling and one of the things that is common in the TPD protocol is that some women start to cycle, as presumably they now are making oestrogen due to the activity of aromatase being turned on. Now whether there is a genetic component to this, I don't know, but potentially.

You though are making estrogen, and as you say, it is potentially too much, which has slightly different consequences. You also though are not making enough progesterone, so lets deal with one then the other.
In order to get rid of estrogen you generally inactivate it by "METHYLATION", so in functional vitamin B12 deficiency, your ability to methylate goes down, and so estrogen would persist and would constantly stimulate estrogen receptors, which potentially is a reason for increased incidence of breast cancer in B12 deficiency. Now the body responds to extra stimulation by estrogen by turning off the number of estrogen receptors. If you suddenly start up methylation, you will also suddenly get rid of estrogen, but the number of estrogen receptors will be very small and so you will suddenly look as if you are not making estrogen, and so then will have similar effects to a person who is estrogen deficient due to low aromatase activity - see above. The difference would be that in this situation, lack of aromatase activity, testosterone levels would be high, but yours are on the low side of normal, so it would not indicate aromatase deficiency.

How does this potentially fit with low Progesterone?
Progesterone production is a little more complicated. It is a precursor for the production of aldosterone. In B12 deficiency, for some reason aldosterone production is reduced, as too is cortisol, and many people with B12 deficiency have evidence of low cortisol levels. In addition, in high estrogen, progresterone receptors are up-regulated, which potentially (and I say potentially) would result in increased removal of what progresterone you are making, thereby giving you lower apparent levels of progesterone.

The above explanations would fit with your observations, and would suggest that if you persist with the protocol, you should establish a lower level of estrogen, as more estrogen will be removed, so you will not be estrogen dominant any more. Over time your estrogen receptors should once again increase, and so you would regain balance between estrogen levels and estrogen receptor numbers. The change in estrogen stimulation of progesterone receptors should mean that less is removed from the circulation, plus the normal production of progesterone should resume. Hence with time your estrogen dominance will drop and your progesterone levels will rise and you should regrow your hair.”
 

Ingeno

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2018
571
284
63
London
Yes I’ve seen others mention hair loss
when starting protocol. Here is one response I found. Also has some interesting info in hormones.

I had a conversation about #hormones and the protocol with GRJ and thought it might help others if I shared. The context was a discussion about my accelerated hair loss on the protocol. This is what he said:

“In order to make estrogen, you need an enzyme called aromatase, which is an enzyme that depends upon vitamin B2 as FAD. In severe B2 deficiency, people don't make enough estrogen, and in young, very active girls, who use up large amounts of B2, they don't cycle, nor develop secondary sexual characteristics, and they build up the precursor, testosterone. This potentially then gives them a competitive advantage due to higher testosterone. It also means that in low functional B2, women will stop cycling and one of the things that is common in the TPD protocol is that some women start to cycle, as presumably they now are making oestrogen due to the activity of aromatase being turned on. Now whether there is a genetic component to this, I don't know, but potentially.

You though are making estrogen, and as you say, it is potentially too much, which has slightly different consequences. You also though are not making enough progesterone, so lets deal with one then the other.
In order to get rid of estrogen you generally inactivate it by "METHYLATION", so in functional vitamin B12 deficiency, your ability to methylate goes down, and so estrogen would persist and would constantly stimulate estrogen receptors, which potentially is a reason for increased incidence of breast cancer in B12 deficiency. Now the body responds to extra stimulation by estrogen by turning off the number of estrogen receptors. If you suddenly start up methylation, you will also suddenly get rid of estrogen, but the number of estrogen receptors will be very small and so you will suddenly look as if you are not making estrogen, and so then will have similar effects to a person who is estrogen deficient due to low aromatase activity - see above. The difference would be that in this situation, lack of aromatase activity, testosterone levels would be high, but yours are on the low side of normal, so it would not indicate aromatase deficiency.

How does this potentially fit with low Progesterone?
Progesterone production is a little more complicated. It is a precursor for the production of aldosterone. In B12 deficiency, for some reason aldosterone production is reduced, as too is cortisol, and many people with B12 deficiency have evidence of low cortisol levels. In addition, in high estrogen, progresterone receptors are up-regulated, which potentially (and I say potentially) would result in increased removal of what progresterone you are making, thereby giving you lower apparent levels of progesterone.

The above explanations would fit with your observations, and would suggest that if you persist with the protocol, you should establish a lower level of estrogen, as more estrogen will be removed, so you will not be estrogen dominant any more. Over time your estrogen receptors should once again increase, and so you would regain balance between estrogen levels and estrogen receptor numbers. The change in estrogen stimulation of progesterone receptors should mean that less is removed from the circulation, plus the normal production of progesterone should resume. Hence with time your estrogen dominance will drop and your progesterone levels will rise and you should regrow your hair.”
Seems more oriented to hair loss in women and not so much to male pattern baldness.
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Update:

No longer feeling any strange symptoms from my doses. I am taking Io/Se/Mo and B2 and Butyric Acid. I am taking quite large doses to be honest. My pee is vibrant yellow/green ever since adding the B2 a few days ago. I dose typically 2-3 times per day, 12 PM, 6 PM and 12 AM before sleep.

I am finding that my body is wanting to wake up earlier, but I can still force myself to sleep. My energy levels seem more consistent although they are not high.

I tried Butyrates a while back but stopped because they gave me intense fatigue and weakness, but now I am not experiencing that at all. I am taking the BodyBio Sodium Butyrate and will add in the BHB (ketones) very soon as well, including GHB.

I have not had ANY salt in over 2 weeks. I don't supplement with potassium either. I don't get heart palps, adrenaline feeling or racing mind, in fact I am super calm and in a good mood with good levels of patience. I've been on a strict carnivore diet, 90% raw, eating muscle meat, fat trimmings, raw honey and carbonated water (san pellegrino).

Raw meat is especially high in zinc and potassium, so maybe that's why I am not getting potassium depletion symptoms. I eat 1-2 pounds of raw meat per day.

This is the most stable I've been in a while. Hands and feet are sometimes cold, sometimes hot. When I first started the Io/Se/Mo I would get cold, but now it seems sometimes I warm up after taking, even on an empty stomach with no calories.

Sex drive is good, also practicing nofap. I have a good libido which is full of desire but it is grounded at the same time, so it doesn't drive me crazy yet I can let the animal inside loose if I wanted too.

I'm always focused on the mental sides, which I am still struggling with, like brain fog, emotions, passions and overall energy production.

Today I will be getting my hands on lamb liver, high in copper, vitamin a and b2. Based on TEI and my research, I am copper deficient, as are many people who do carnivore and develop histamine issues (iron overload & low copper).

These are exciting times and I hope many of us get over this in 2020. I will continue to update you all. Overall this protocol is going well, it's been just under 2 weeks.

Once I've reached 2-3 months, or maybe earlier depending how I feel, I will go directly at the gut and deal with the sibo once I know detox pathways are operational.
This all makes sense to me specifically the fact you’re on an extremely low carb diet and getting plenty of zinc and potassium.

I’m reacting horribly to carbs currently. And I do great with carbs normally. This is second carb breakfast I’ve had this week today where I went from doing well to crashing in energy after carbs.

We are elevating cortisol with this protocol. Carbs push potassium into cell. Blocking potassium by lowering carb intake keeps cortisol from climbing.

Greg doesn’t like keto or paleo on his protocol. But I think protein, fat based diet with minor to moderate carb consumption would be best. Carbs later in day like the cdsnuts of the world recommend might work.
 
Last edited:

MCurtone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2019
234
206
43
Canada
One more thing, I normally get tinnitus 3-4x per day and it lasts 2-3 seconds and goes away quickly.

Since starting this protocol and adding b2, I have not had tinnitus once.
 
Likes: bruschi11

MCurtone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2019
234
206
43
Canada
Today I had my first dose of b1.

I am taking Io/Se/Mo, B2 & B1.

I've also been having about 100 grams of beef liver per day for the last 3 days. Yesterday I also had fresh lamb brain.

Today I feel a little more clarity and my brain is functioning on a higher level. I work in sales and I find thoughts and words rolling off my tongue much easier.

Exciting times ahead.
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Today I had my first dose of b1.

I am taking Io/Se/Mo, B2 & B1.

I've also been having about 100 grams of beef liver per day for the last 3 days. Yesterday I also had fresh lamb brain.

Today I feel a little more clarity and my brain is functioning on a higher level. I work in sales and I find thoughts and words rolling off my tongue much easier.

Exciting times ahead.
I knew this was going to go well for you. Glad you really dug in.

Man I wish I started this clean like you. Couldn’t get off my balancing protocol and have to run it with. Literally addicted to zinc on this protocol and need magnesium, calcium too. Calcium foods, meat I legit crave.

Greg mentioned oxalates can cause trouble here so maybe that’s why mag, calcium so needed for me. We all know oxalates are taken care of by sufficient b6 and calcium. Magnesium activates b6 (w/ FNM) so makes sense to me.

I ruined myself with iodide this past weekend 225mcg both days and came out of it with 250mg of b2 this morning. Seems like extra b2 is the answer when you hurt yourself with cofactors which I first learned with moly and now iodide. Going to really back off iodide once again- maybe 50mcg in morning that’s it and continue with 75-100mcg moly.

Zinc I’m lowering to around 55mg from 77. 11mg morning, 22 lunch, 22 dinner, no more before bed. Before bed zinc doses have been making me feel horrrrible. I need it to make my system run all day, but at night it’s bad. Drinking a veggie juice, coconut waters to stay sufficient in potassium. Zinc retains it. Without zinc, I can feel cortisol (potassium) soar.

B2 is the question mark looking ahead. Yes, my best days while running NB were in early November taking about 250mg of b2 daily. But that’s a heavy dose I’d like to lower quite a bit. Think I could do well with 25mg 3 times a day like @A98648 . Might take a week of heavy doses but the lower dose is the goal.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Aflac94

Maxin

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2018
309
136
43
I knew this was going to go well for you. Glad you really dug in.

Man I wish I started this clean like you. Couldn’t get off my balancing protocol and have to run it with. Literally addicted to zinc on this protocol and need magnesium, calcium too. Calcium foods, meat I legit crave.

Greg mentioned oxalates can cause trouble here so maybe that’s why mag, calcium so needed for me. We all know oxalates are taken care of by sufficient b6 and calcium. Magnesium activates b6 (w/ FNM) so makes sense to me.

I ruined myself with iodide this past weekend 225mcg both days and came out of it with 250mg of b2 this morning. Seems like extra b2 is the answer when you hurt yourself with cofactors which I first learned with moly and now iodide. Going to really back off iodide once again- maybe 50mcg in morning that’s it and continue with 75-100mcg moly.

Zinc I’m lowering to around 55mg from 77. 11mg morning, 22 lunch, 22 dinner, no more before bed. Before bed zinc doses have been making me feel horrrrible. I need it to make my system run all day, but at night it’s bad. Drinking a veggie juice, coconut waters to stay sufficient in potassium. Zinc retains it. Without zinc, I can feel cortisol (potassium) soar.

B2 is the question mark looking ahead. Yes, my best days while running NB were in early November taking about 250mg of b2 daily. But that’s a heavy dose I’d like to lower quite a bit. Think I could do well with 25mg 3 times a day like @A98648 . Might take a week of heavy doses but the lower dose is the goal.
Hey, a couple of questions-so according to Greg, any more than I believe 20 mg b2 you do not absorb. It is important to have yellow pee throughout the day. If not yellow than not getting enough. So why do you think the high doses are having such an effect?

So also, this is just my opinion. But how are you sure how each supplement is affecting you, because it seems like you switch dosages around quite a bit on a daily basis. It just seems like when you get a negative symptom you start playing around with large dosages of things. I think the biggest take I’ve gotten from Greg’s protocol is to be consistent and expect side effects. Going through them instead of avoiding them.

Tbh this is the first time I’ve stuck to a protocol very consistently, and it’s really helped me get a sense of how slow these things work, and how the changes really evolve on a subtle level. And it’s been rough for sure. I normally would want to reach in my cupboard for something to take “because my cortisol dropped” or “maybe I need to add in b1 I am super fatigued”. But part of this protocol is allowing these changes as part of the process.
Hope I’m making sense. You know your body way better than I do. I’m just concerned that your throwing to many things in the mix under assumptions that may or may not be true.
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Hey, a couple of questions-so according to Greg, any more than I believe 20 mg b2 you do not absorb. It is important to have yellow pee throughout the day. If not yellow than not getting enough. So why do you think the high doses are having such an effect?

So also, this is just my opinion. But how are you sure how each supplement is affecting you, because it seems like you switch dosages around quite a bit on a daily basis. It just seems like when you get a negative symptom you start playing around with large dosages of things. I think the biggest take I’ve gotten from Greg’s protocol is to be consistent and expect side effects. Going through them instead of avoiding them.

Tbh this is the first time I’ve stuck to a protocol very consistently, and it’s really helped me get a sense of how slow these things work, and how the changes really evolve on a subtle level. And it’s been rough for sure. I normally would want to reach in my cupboard for something to take “because my cortisol dropped” or “maybe I need to add in b1 I am super fatigued”. But part of this protocol is allowing these changes as part of the process.
Hope I’m making sense. You know your body way better than I do. I’m just concerned that your throwing to many things in the mix under assumptions that may or may not be true.
Iodine, which I clearly can’t handle AT ALL, caused me to require the high b2 doses. That is not a long term plan as I listed.

I’m just looking at rest of group and most are handling iodine fine. So I thought I’d need it and used the last few days. But no, it affects me that badly. The only way out for me when it does this is gigantic b2 doses.
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Iodine, which I clearly can’t handle AT ALL, caused me to require the high b2 doses. That is not a long term plan as I listed.

I’m just looking at rest of group and most are handling iodine fine. So I thought I’d need it and used the last few days. But no, it affects me that badly. The only way out for me when it does this is gigantic b2 doses.
Funny, only two people here who haven’t been able to handle iodine are me and @Orion . Maybe fasting helps body retain iodine after? Lol

Glad to get that out of the way though. My most important nutrients for this to work are b2, moly, zinc, calcium (diet), iron (diet), potassium (ability to retain it via zinc specifically and via diet ), magnesium it seems.

This has a lot to do with the cortisol production line which I learned a lot from using chillns (allthingsmale forum) theories in 2016. Cortisol production line goes cholesterol—>pregnenolone—> progesterone—> cortisol.

So I was looking for a past Helen post to help understand this better for me. Came across this @Helen quote last night which explains it all to me really great.

PER HELEN below

"
For libido, you need iron copper zinc manganese at least.

Zinc alone lower copper and makes iron and manganese lost and thus libido decreases . Zinc increases 3 beta hds.

Cholesterol - to Pregnenolone= IRON.

Pregnenolone to progesterone= zinc

progesterone to cortisol= IRON

pregnenolone to DHEA= copper

DHEA to testerone = zinc

prolactin= manganese

testosterone to estrogen= copper
testosterone- dht - iron


You see if you are missing any of these, YOu will have lower libido."[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

Ingeno

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2018
571
284
63
London
Funny, only two people here who haven’t been able to handle iodine are me and @Orion . Maybe fasting helps body retain iodine after? Lol

Glad to get that out of the way though. My most important nutrients for this to work are b2, moly, zinc, calcium, iron, maybe magnesium it seems.

This has a lot to do with the cortisol production line which I learned a lot from using chillns (allthingsmale forum) theories in 2016. Cortisol production line goes cholesterol—>pregnenolone—> progesterone—> cortisol.

So I was looking for a past Helen post to help understand this better for me. Came across this @Helen last night which explains it all to me really great.

PER HELEN below

"
For libido, you need iron copper zinc manganese at least.

Zinc alone lower copper and makes iron and manganese lost and thus libido decreases . Zinc increases 3 beta hds.

Cholesterol - to Pregnenolone= IRON.

Pregnenolone to progesterone= zinc

progesterone to cortisol= IRON

pregnenolone to DHEA= copper

DHEA to testerone = zinc

prolactin= manganese

testosterone to estrogen= copper
testosterone- dht - iron


You see if you are missing any of these, YOu will have lower libido."
Don't forget potassium. Greg warned about potassium wasting on this protocol and reaching 3,5-4 grams a day consistent is pretty hard. Making sure to get 100% RDA of potassium seems to help me.
 
Likes: Maxin

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Hey, a couple of questions-so according to Greg, any more than I believe 20 mg b2 you do not absorb. It is important to have yellow pee throughout the day. If not yellow than not getting enough. So why do you think the high doses are having such an effect?
Funny thing yesterday regarding this.

Having taken iodine all weekend I was pretty messed up yesterday morning. Went heavy b2 dose 250mg with no zinc around 1 pm. I urinated an hour later clear, barely hints of yellow at all. I was still not feeling well at all, brain racing etc.

Then took 33mg zinc approx 2 hours later. Within 10 minutes, I felt a lot better. Half hour later I pee bright bright yellow. 22 more mg of zinc a few hours after that and I feel dandy.

It seems it’s really important FOR ME to inflate progesterone in order to retain potassium. Potassium is the biggy. But if we go too high on zinc, we lose iron and we can’t convert our cholesterol to preg and/or prog to cort.

This stuff is fascinating to me right now. Looking at it from cortisol production line. I gave myself a pretty good life in 2016 just from optimizing these hormones themselves. Now we’re actually going to to the top of the stream to optimize them through vitamins and minerals. Amazing stuff.
 

bruschi11

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
2,596
2,149
113
31
Boston, MA
Don't forget potassium. Greg warned about potassium wasting on this protocol and reaching 3,5-4 grams a day consistent is pretty hard. Making sure to get 100% RDA of potassium seems to help me.
I just added that to the quote I was missing that. But again, at least for me and I’m sure plenty of people with potassium problems in that group, zinc potently helps retain the potassium intake via progesterone. The ability to RETAIN potassium I believe is most overlooked thing in this protocol.

Magnesium, calcium are important in retaining potassium too.
 
Last edited:

Maxin

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2018
309
136
43
Don't forget potassium. Greg warned about potassium wasting on this protocol and reaching 3,5-4 grams a day consistent is pretty hard. Making sure to get 100% RDA of potassium seems to help me.
Yes Greg would say negative symptoms most likely potassium. I think if we are going to follow this protocol we shouldn’t speculate too much on other deficiencies or we start chasing our tail. Partly why I’ve liked his protocol is that it’s straightforward. Otherwise we never reach equilibrium. Later when we’ve tolerated each cofactors and b12 then it’s time to look at things like folate and other deficiencies. But the minerals, bs, and iron are what this protocol is.