Interesting protocol for restoring glutathione and functional vitamin B2. ( CFS)

Oct 27, 2017
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Well I’m certainly not going to make my own science using my imagination. But if for example the science shows moly not increasing cortisol but that’s clearly the reaction I feel going on in my own body based on my own experience I’m going with my gut.

Reading this post #694 might give more clue what needs to be done and i think its not necessarily what drives cortisol up or down. Cortisol is outcome and not some that needs to be worked on directly or maybe i see it this way. But before that proper testing is required to know what your status and base level is.
 

MCurtone

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Today I seemed to respond okay to the Io/Se/Mo

Initially my hands and feet went cold, but I was not as tired. Libido is strong. Had sex with girlfriend 3 times and no POIS symptoms whatsoever. Very unusual, but good.

Excited to get B2 going soon.
 

Enricks

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Jul 20, 2018
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@Helen @bruschi11

Hey. I couldn't read the whole topic, is there a spesific supplement I should take right now?

My problems are spesifically cognitive deteroiration, reactive bowel muscles, emotional numbening, hyperphagia and sleepiness.
 

tanedout

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Oct 17, 2017
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Sort of been trying the alternative method for this protocol (ie the multivitamin with the correct forms of the minerals - iodide, moly and selenium in salt forms) with some signs of positive results.

If I take just about a 10th of a table (which should be 1 per day) then it seems to really help with my bile flow issues - the pains/tightness in the upper right ribcage subside (which is surprising as I wouldn't have expected any affect on this issue), and I will get a return of senses - much better smell, sharper vision, start sweating again and smelling of sweat and more of that feeling of being alive, but on the negative side I then later get really bad anxiety comes on, and I feel freezing cold the following day so it's obviously having an effect on thyroid. This wouldn't be such an issue in summer, but its a problem in winter.

(Worth noting that taking a multivitamin which doesn't contain the salt forms of those minerals doesn't give the same beneficial results)

I tried iodine alone in tablet form and I feel terrible taking just that (even tiny amounts). Taking that alongside just moly and selenium salts results in returning of sweating etc, but also feeling terrible. I'm guessing there is something else I'm deficient in which the multivitamin supplies (possibly copper?).

Going try and build up with the multivitamin again from only tiny amounts, and try and push through the anxiety (that could be some sort of bacteria die-off I'm guessing?, but its a nightmare being in work feeling so much anxiety!)

Got another hair test ready to send off. I was mid-range in selenium, but borderline low in molybdenum on the last two, but its over a year since I did one. My bloods always show I'm basically hypothyroid - TSH is above the limit, and T3, T4 are really low.

Overall though, pretty encouraged by this protocol!
 
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Enricks

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Which minerals? How much dosage? As I said, I'm not in condition to read all the topic. I don't understand anything at all either. Individual supplements are expensive as hell in the country I live. I want to take the most essential vitamin/mineral right now. Which one I should take?

Also cyproheptadine helps me to control my reactive bowel muscles a bit. At least I don't get those as frequent. I'm taking 2 mg daily, I haven't seen any improvement or worsening (except worse cognitive performance). What does it mean?
@Helen

Are you alive?

I really can't use my computer or phone anymore

Can you detect early dementia from an email? A proof of principle study of daily computer use to detect cognitive and functional decline
 

bruschi11

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@Helen @bruschi11

Hey. I couldn't read the whole topic, is there a spesific supplement I should take right now?

My problems are spesifically cognitive deteroiration, reactive bowel muscles, emotional numbening, hyperphagia and sleepiness.
this is so complex that I think it takes more than one supplement. But @Maxin is having some success with a very basic protocol. I can’t speak right now.... I tried to go all in on one supplement and it threw my body chemistry out of whack.

Yes I’ve had major improvements that have stuck, but currently I’m in very fast oxidation, high cortisol it seems. And I Am working on fixing that.

Do you have any hair tests @Enricks ? Maybe just use the multimineral supplement that @mbax44 is using and/or the multivitamin that @Maxin is using. Thought fellers?
 
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mbax44

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May 11, 2018
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I can recommend the mineral blend by genestra(?). It’s got all 3 recd minerals in a low dose blend which can easily be titrated depending on the persons experience. For me so far it’s been a subtle but gradual improvement. There have been rough days for sure where I’ve had to recalibrate and lower the dose. It’s taken me a month to work up to 5 drops which I’d guess is about 80 mcg of each mineral. It’s a slow process but I’m trying my best to follow the protocol as outlined. As Greg says, our bodies have been in an absolute mess for a very long time and it’s ridiculous to expect it to get fixed quickly, so that’s how I’m approaching it.
 

Shuddering

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Dec 11, 2019
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This protocol and thread are ignoring the real cause of low FAD for so many people- which is poisoning by metals (both toxic metals, and nutritional metals, which become toxic if you get too much, and then suppress all sorts of enzymes, including FAD for many of them). The only way to fix this is chelation. But you have to be careful. If you aren't certain you don't have mercury or arsenic or lead, for instance, you have to start with EXTREMELY low doses of chelators, or you can release too much from the cells at once and get injured or die. And you can potentially threaten blood vessel or heart integrity or cause dangerous mineral deficiencies if you aren't careful. Oral DIY chelation is generally better and safer (if you research it so ypu know how to do it properly) than IV chelation under the supervision of medical practicioners, which can be extremely dangerous, despite what they may say. And many chelators, eg EDTA, I think may be inherently unsafe, and do not recommend anyone use.

But when you remove the offending mineral, your enzymes will often INSTANTLY reactivate, and you'll be healed. The tricky parts are finding out what you are specifically toxic in, and chelating that without harming yourself or depleting yourself of other things.

Greg’s notes on high serum B12:
“The next thing is that if you have high serum folate levels it may be that you are not trapping folate within the cell. Many of these individuals drop their serum folate when the start supplementing with B12 because they can process the folate. Next, I have found that most people with very high serum B12 are often paradoxically deficient in B12. This is because the identity of the B12 species is not characterized. Hence if you are deficient in functional B2 (which many pregnant women become or are), you do not regenerate Co(II)B12 (an oxidized form), and so the B12 is lost to the serum. It then registers as high B12 levels as the liver keeps dumping more and more B12 to make up for functional deficiency. In CFS I see some people with serum B12 levels of well over 1000 and some even 2000, yet they are functionally B12 deficient, because they are B2 deficient. Many of these people suck methyl B12 lozenges basically for the entire time that they are awake, they destroy their dentine layer, they have dramatically elevated B12 levels (of an unidentified analogue) and yet are functionally B12 deficient. All the ASD kids that I have OAT data for are both extrememly functionally B2 deficient (some of the highest values that I have seen) and are also very functionally B12 deficient (once again extremely high values). Prolonged B2 and B12 deficiency eventually leads to iron deficiency, which is also very common in ASD kids. In short the authors haven't quite got the full story, but have now successfully instilled this fear in women not to take B12 and folate. ASD is actually a very, very simple conditon, but people want to try to make it complex.
I don't know why everyone is missing/avoiding the B2 connection, it is sooooo obvious.”

"Your serum B12 has been huge 1907 and 1740, but despite this you have signs of B12 deficiency. This throws the average GP right off their game, BUT, if you now look at MMA, your two MMA values are 133 and 140, and this is in the deficiency range. Just got some quite nice data from a paper looking at levels in dietary sufficiency, without all the complications that you have. So you MMA levels would say that your serum B12 levels were 250 and 255, way below you measured B12 levels. This is called paradoxical B12 deficiency. Thus, when you measure serum B12 your levels are very high, but when you measure markers, such as MMA, and also HVA/VMA/QA/KA you are B12 deficient, a Paradox."
"ASD is actually a very simple condition." Lol, he's right, but he is approaching this from completely the wrong direction. Why is b2 not working in Autistic people? It's not because you're missing moly Iodine and Selenium, I'll tell you that (well, sometimes people are missing Iodine, people eat so much PUFA today and that puts lots of pressure on it. People giving foods with soybean oil to kids (or anyone) are mentally deranged). Do you think ASD, which basically did not exist before the 1940s, barely existed for 40 years after that, but suddenly skyrocketed and became extremely common in young people from the late 1980s onward, along with all these other conditions- ADD ADHD asthma childhood diabetes etc, is due to lack of these 3 minerals? Do you think babies' diets 30 years ago suddenly no longer contained these nutrients? Lol, no.

I'll tell you what actually is the simple cause of ASD and all these other things that did not ever happen before the late 20th century: 30 years ago doctors started injecting babies with mercury and aluminum. These people are poisoned with mercury and aluminum- that is why their b2 is not bioavailable. you will NEVER restore it by taking any nutrient if that is your problem. Diet does not fix this, supplements do not fix this.

You need to chelate your Hg and Al if you want to fix this. I did, and I briefly was healed and had tons more energy as an adult than I ever did as a kid, my attention deficit dramatically improved, etc. But these things have been taken away from me again for now because DMSA depleted me of other minerals and this caused me to overaccumulate others and I have to fix that before my body can work again.

I tried all these different diets, nutrients, etc in 2018 and 2019, hoping they would fix my ever-worsening energy, tooth and gum decay, weak bones, low body weight, low blood pressure, low body temperature, tendency to acidic body pH, low hormone production, anxiety, poor focus. Some of them helped a bit. Zinc, iodine, selenium. But on the whole, I got worse. I was not getting better at all, because none of these things will work so long as you still are poisoned with mercury.
And when you remove the mercury, suddenly EVERYTHING works. You will not believe it. When parents chelate their autistic kids, often there will be a week where after a round their language abilities suddenly return or improve a lot, and they start speaking in full sentences etc. That is the "simple" cause of ASD. You don't fix it with minerals, lol.

taught us that the way to to this is 1.) to be very consistent in dosing (at least twice per day, every day) 2.) to start with TINY amounts, some can only handle the head of a pin and 3.) add potassium foods and supps as needed when adrenalin symptoms start.

GRJ's basic protocol:
RnB Treatment Protocol (Riboflavin and B12)
This protocol has been developed to help to overcome functional B2 deficiency in conditions such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Autism Spectrum Disorder, where it is commonly
Does he have any examples where this worked to fix functional b2 deficiency in conditions such as Chronic Fatigue syndrome and Autism Spectrum Disorder, both of which are usually or frequently caused by poisoning with toxic metals (or in some cases of CFS nutritional metals in excess)? Look, the iodine protocol is great, and helped me so much. Molybdenum has been great as well, getting it in my diet last year. I'm glad this protocol and info is here, it is good to know, and could help many people. But these claims he's making are so strong, and are leading people away from learning about the real cause of these conditions, which if you do not fix will mean you NEVER get better.

I took all 3 today, Iodine, Selen, Moly.

I can handle the Iodine and Selen fine, but when I add the Moly I feel very strange. Kind of like brain-fog or in a dream-state. I might have to eliminate it and keep building up to it. I will keep everyone updated.
@

Moly made me feel the exact same way. I had to lower the dose and it went away. Now I’m able to take the full dose. Greg would say if it affects you strongly you are depleted.
Be careful with moly, guys. Yeah it will affect you strongly if you are depleted, it will also affect you strongly if you already have a lot. People have reported getting brain damage and cognitive deficits from taking just a bit too much molybdenum. Like every other nutritional mineral, it is extremely harmful if you overdo it. Watch out!

I was just below the middle with selenium on my last hair test, after that I took 210 mcg daily for 2-3 months (not the salt form). I meant that taking selenium for me right now is feeling like hell, insane insomnia with heart poundings and feeling ice cold and like total shit, I tried several times.
This could be mercury- that may be Selenium displacing mercury which can feel like that (but can't tell for sure from this info alone). Also remember that like anything else, you can get toxic in selenium. And if you live in the United States you take in plenty from food, there's plenty of it in the soil here. When I was still mercury toxic, selenium at first did not do that to me and I could handle fine after initial bromide detox alongside iodine, but eventually it began to cause my mercury to redistribute, as did iodine, as did sulfur compounds, and so I couldn't take them any more for a while, ebcause the mercury would damage me. And if you are toxic in mercury, that is your real problem. That is why your b2/FAD is low. You are not too low at this point in Molybdenum or Iodine or Selenium.

The doses recommended in this protocol could be dangerous for a lot of people. Be careful, everyone.

These minerals can be helpful to displace smaller amounts of mercury and other toxic metals from the body, however. If they are doing that, you will probably feel painful redistribution symptoms when you take them, and your urine afterwards will be light green, with an almost greyish tint. But if your metal toxicity problem is substantial, you will need a lot more than just these trace minerals. You'll probably need chelation.


P.S I have very low molybnenum on hairtest, and yet in blood is was 3 times over the limit. When I took more molybdenum I felt out of this world )) spacy feeling and later I was crashing from beans for a year.
An example of hair tests not showing actual values for minerals the way many here assume they do. Remember everyone, if a mineral on your chart is low that can actually mean you already have too much!

I am still getting sufficient selenium through sardines and eggs, I just seem to respond bad to the selenium salt.

I always had low molybdenum on hairtest, except for the 3th, where it was right in the middle. Never took molybdenum, only TEI supps + diet, so they knew how to increase it without actually supplementing.

Also Dr. L Wilson is against supplementing molybdenum and says the hair values aren't that useful: https://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/MOLYBDENUM.htm

I think it can be dangerous if you are low on copper.
Yes, Dr Wilson is right to warn about supplemental Mo. And it can be dangerous even if your copper is normal or high.

I’m definitely causing some damage with moly going back to it around 200mcg yesterday. I’m depleting both zinc and magnesium it appears. These are my stress battling (cortisol control) minerals normally and I’m just having a tough time with that.

My immune system is off. I’m waking up with allergies each morning. Mold in my apartment killed me yesterday reacting to the heat. And then today at my parents house where there is no mold, I’m just having allergies to who knows what.

Will back down to 100-125mcg today. Magnesium baths next couple a days and raise zinc to approx 88mg daily.
Dude, 200 mcg is a lot. And it's probbaly better to get some anyways from beans, peas, lentils, butter. Butter is extremely helpful for many for other reasons, as well. It can be amazing for SIBO, for instance.

It’s so strong. I can’t believe it. I took all my vits/minerals with breakfast this morning. Did a magnesium bath. Was feeling very good relative to how I woke up. Then took moly only 25mcg. Cortisol flew high and here I am struggling a bit again lol.

I might need to take some time away from it. Have to go by feel though. It seems like moly increases cortisol, iodine/selenium increase thyroid. While zinc/copper/iron/ magnesium strengthen/
control cortisol.

I’m trying my best to be mindful comparing this stuff to 2016 preg/t3/testo days. Goal was to increase pregnenolone and use t3 to convert to cortisol. Cortisol would get weak and high if I wasn’t sufficient in testosterone.
Have you considered if it might be inducing high cortisol because it could be damaging you, rather than just enabling higher natural production capacity?

You've said in other threads that you think you have mercury poisoning. If that is the case you should almost certainly just start attacking that immediately and not bother much with this stuff here. The longer you are mercury toxic, especially if you are supplementing with large doses of minerals, the more likely it is that you will become toxic in nutritional minerals as well, which will make you far more chronically sick, and make it dramatically harder for you to heal yourself. Like, what if you overdo the molybdenum, and make yourself toxic in it, and get brain damage and lots of shut off enzymes? You will need to chelate out the excess molybdenum to undo that, but you will only be able to take tiny doses of chelators because of your mercury- if you do more,, you will redistribute too much mercury and crash. And the small amounts of molybdenum you will unavoidably take in with diet will undo the small progress you get with each small chelation round, so you get stuck. I got into a situation like this last summer with magnesium, I took in too much from my diet and became toxic in it, and I almost got trapped and died because mercury blocked my ability to chelate it.

If you think you have mercury poisoning and that your FAD isn't working, that is why. Even if you were lacking molybdenum before you certainly no longer are. Just pushing it further and further at this point is only inviting disaster. What are you expecting it to do for you beyond this point? If I were you I would start tackling mercury as soon as possible and try to do as quickly as you can without risking injury. You will probably improve so much so quickly as you lower your mercury, if you do it carefully so as to not imbalance yourself in the process of chelation.




build myelin, you have to fix 100 FAD dependent enzymes, about the same number of B6 dependent enzymes, and around 200 methylating enzymes. Once you h
Again, why are these enzymes shut down?
 

mbax44

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Oh boy. The mercury/chelation thing again . This shit sent me on a two year detour that really fucked me up. If you think playing w low doses of minerals is “dangerous” then just start fucking around with the quackery that is chelation and the dr cutler fanatics. A never ending shit storm of taking just 2.5 mg too much of ALA will “redistribute” mercury into your amygdala . Oops you really fucked up . But wait-maybe you’re just “detoxing” and should “push through” and up your dose to 20 mg. How to tell? Who the fuck knows cuz all the “die off” and “redistribution” symptoms are exactly the same. Oh and be sure to take your chelation supps like 6 times a day, because apparently as soon as the ALA or whatever is wearing off that damn mercury goes to the wrong places.(most likely your frontal lobes or wherever is scariest, ideally)

Tread lightly. And I really hope this thread doesn’t get derailed. If you all want to buy into that you got mercury poisoned as a baby (which weirdly didn’t start causing you issues til your 30 or40 or after you took fin/saw palmetto), then be ready to go down a never ending rabbit hole. You’ve been warned.
 
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bruschi11

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Oh boy. The mercury/chelation thing again . This shit sent me on a two year detour that really fucked me up. If you think playing w low doses of minerals is “dangerous” then just start fucking around with the quackery that is chelation and the dr cutler fanatics. A never ending shit storm of taking just 2.5 mg too much of ALA will “redistribute” mercury into your amygdala . Oops you really fucked up . But wait-maybe you’re just “detoxing” and should “push through” and up your dose to 20 mg. How to tell? Who the fuck knows cuz all the “die off” and “redistribution” symptoms are exactly the same. Oh and be sure to take your chelation supps like 6 times a day, because apparently as soon as the ALA or whatever is wearing off that damn mercury goes to the wrong places.(most likely your frontal lobes or wherever is scariest, ideally)

Tread lightly. And I really hope this thread doesn’t get derailed. If you all want to buy into that you got mercury poisoned as a baby (which weirdly didn’t start causing you issues til your 30 or40 or after you took fin/saw palmetto), then be ready to go down a never ending rabbit hole. You’ve been warned.
Amen.
 
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MCurtone

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A lot of us are sick here because we had imbalance in the first place, which taking finasteride/sp pushed us over the edge. I highly doubt this is due to autistic-levels of mercury and aluminum. However, absolutely we are sicker than ever due to vaccines.

But most of us are not damaged by vaccines...that's something for the newer generation. We either have epigenetic issues due to fin/sp, some type of imbalance or the gut was compromised, which we know fin alters gut microbiome. This can lead to sibo and other issues, which leads to the depletion of io/se/mo and b2.

I totally understand the issues with mercury and aluminum, but I am almost certain that they are not responsible for (us in this case) this as you are making it seem. Vaccine-induced autism is a completely different story though.
 
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mbax44

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It’s frustrating and something that’s understandable due to everyone here wanting to be cured-but there’s a trend of threads being derailed by other people’s protocols or know it all stances that go against the premise or program being discussed, which winds up leading to members not following said protocol long enough to really see if it works. If dude has such a hard on for chelation/mercury, he should start his own thread on it where others can experiment.

I’m fairly certain there’s a decent percentage of us here who have walked that insane (in my opinion) path and want nothing more to do with it.
Edit- I’ll just add that there are tons of horror stories of especially cfs type people following the chelation path as it’s laid out and even getting feedback by chelation “experts” and ending up much much worse off.
 
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bruschi11

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A lot of us are sick here because we had imbalance in the first place, which taking finasteride/sp pushed us over the edge. I highly doubt this is due to autistic-levels of mercury and aluminum. However, absolutely we are sicker than ever due to vaccines.

But most of us are not damaged by vaccines...that's something for the newer generation. We either have epigenetic issues due to fin/sp, some type of imbalance or the gut was compromised, which we know fin alters gut microbiome. This can lead to sibo and other issues, which leads to the depletion of io/se/mo and b2.

I totally understand the issues with mercury and aluminum, but I am almost certain that they are not responsible for (us in this case) this as you are making it seem. Vaccine-induced autism is a completely different story though.
Yup I have high mercury in my hair tests. I get it my body can completely do without it and I’d like to get rid of it eventually. An end goal of my whole health plan for the next several years is ridding mercury.

But I cured myself from cfs once. It did not involve chelation. I strengthened my body and what happened was my strong body was removing the mercury as shown on my very first hair test.

Sure I’ve had a relapse since then that’s been tough getting out of. But what was I doing for the 3 or so months before my relapse? Chelation involved therapies.

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. But that’s my history. IMO fixing body chemistry + the microbiome allows the body to essentially chelate itself. Sure chelators can then help the cause. But I’m highly of the opinion that body chemistry + microbiome comes first when it comes to chelation.

First time I got cured was with a lot of fasting to fix a calcium shell for body chemistry. This time it’s cool learning how to build a body up with nutrition. I’m not saying b2 pathway is the cure to everything. But I’m saying that it very well may be a gigantic factor in this science we are learning. Very very big.
 

bruschi11

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Dude, 200 mcg is a lot. And it's probbaly better to get some anyways from beans, peas, lentils, butter. Butter is extremely helpful for many for other reasons, as well. It can be amazing for SIBO, for instance.


Have you considered if it might be inducing high cortisol because it could be damaging you, rather than just enabling higher natural production capacity?

You've said in other threads that you think you have mercury poisoning. If that is the case you should almost certainly just start attacking that immediately and not bother much with this stuff here. The longer you are mercury toxic, especially if you are supplementing with large doses of minerals, the more likely it is that you will become toxic in nutritional minerals as well, which will make you far more chronically sick, and make it dramatically harder for you to heal yourself. Like, what if you overdo the molybdenum, and make yourself toxic in it, and get brain damage and lots of shut off enzymes? You will need to chelate out the excess molybdenum to undo that, but you will only be able to take tiny doses of chelators because of your mercury- if you do more,, you will redistribute too much mercury and crash. And the small amounts of molybdenum you will unavoidably take in with diet will undo the small progress you get with each small chelation round, so you get stuck. I got into a situation like this last summer with magnesium, I took in too much from my diet and became toxic in it, and I almost got trapped and died because mercury blocked my ability to chelate it.

If you think you have mercury poisoning and that your FAD isn't working, that is why. Even if you were lacking molybdenum before you certainly no longer are. Just pushing it further and further at this point is only inviting disaster. What are you expecting it to do for you beyond this point? If I were you I would start tackling mercury as soon as possible and try to do as quickly as you can without risking injury. You will probably improve so much so quickly as you lower your mercury, if you do it carefully so as to not imbalance yourself in the process of chelation.


Again, why are these enzymes shut down?
I agree that moly is harming me in these high doses. I’ve likely let FMN just flat out leak into FAD uncontrollably. With sufficient thyroid hormones (as I likely have based on reactions to iodine and sele and as shown on hair test) , b2 should be converting to FMN just fine.

Remember- moly is the co-factor in FMN—>FAD based on Greg’s teachings. As his protocol is primarily focused on b2–>FMN—>FAD.

With b2-> FMN working well, it’s likely that the excess intake of moly is just draining b2 and FMN. With excess moly, I see myself likely becoming more and more deficient in b2. The use of iodine and selenium lately probably have even made this even worse. Due to fact thyroid hormones cause this cascade to speed b2–> FMN and also aids FMN to FAD. End product is running out of b2.

Essentially what I’ve done with moly is caused an overflow of FAD which will eventually become a deficiency due to the fact I am draining the precursors to this stream (being b2 then FMN).

I’m getting back on track currently with this theory on hand. Been a good day. Only 25mcg moly today. Filling up on b2 without draining it to FAD was nice today. Need to stop the iodine completely I think and possibly selenium too. Build up on b2–> FMN (which shouldn’t need supplementation as I’m sufficient) and then use moly in slow and low doses to move FMN to FAD.

This is how I see this protocol for my direct case currently. B2 is the big one. Gotta get sufficient there- and when you cause excesses in thyroid hormones (iodine/ selenium) and moly you’re just going to deplete b2 even worse.
 
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Shuddering

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Wow everybody, way to ignore the details and caveats I listed in my post specifically for this purpose. I didn't say EVERYONE has mercury poisoning. I also didn't say that all mineral toxicities are from mercury. I said that many (it's most, actually) come from nutritional minerals, so everyone is vulnerable to that, especially when they are chronically ill so their metal carrying proteins aren't working and they specifically take minerals in far larger doses at once than what food provides. I am not "derailing" the thread, I am simply adding some very important warnings so people don't fuck themselves over with these minerals, which they absolutely can do. There's been barely been any mention in this thread of the dangers of supplementing molybdenum, Iodine, or Selenium, even amounts that seem "low". What about the cases where Iodine causes thyroid and liver damage (see Dr Wilson's warning on chemical forms of Iodine, I have come to think he is generally right, though I have benefited a lot at times from lugol's) or ages a person's skin by decades, even when they take selenium with it. Or when people take too much selenium (and it has been claimed in some places that the Albion selenomethionine doesn't even work) and get diabetes (which you can probably fix instantly with ALA chelation, btw), or when they take just a few Molybdenum drops too many and get brain damage.

It's like the people on this forum don't bother to read the details and nuances in posts and just skim over them and get one basic idea of what it is about and then autistically (but in a different sense from the type caused by mercury, this type is just a choice) attack their own false representation/summary of that post. I didn't claim mercury was everybody's problem. I wasn't even pointing out mercury in particular for people on this thread (though some probably do have it)- only to respond to the claims quoted in this thread about the cause of and solution for ASD. I was pointing out that mineral toxicities (and not just inherently toxic metals, but any of them) are many people's problem, and should be one of the first things to look for for anyone who is chronically ill or unwell, including for post-drug syndromes that on the surface might not seem related to this at all.


Oh boy. The mercury/chelation thing again . This shit sent me on a two year detour that really fucked me up. If you think playing w low doses of minerals is “dangerous” then just start fucking around with the quackery that is chelation and the dr cutler fanatics. A never ending shit storm of taking just 2.5 mg too much of ALA will “redistribute” mercury into your amygdala . Oops you really fucked up . But wait-maybe you’re just “detoxing” and should “push through” and up your dose to 20 mg. How to tell? Who the fuck knows cuz all the “die off” and “redistribution” symptoms are exactly the same. Oh and be sure to take your chelation supps like 6 times a day, because apparently as soon as the ALA or whatever is wearing off that damn mercury goes to the wrong places.(most likely your frontal lobes or wherever is scariest, ideally)

Tread lightly. And I really hope this thread doesn’t get derailed. If you all want to buy into that you got mercury poisoned as a baby (which weirdly didn’t start causing you issues til your 30 or40 or after you took fin/saw palmetto), then be ready to go down a never ending rabbit hole. You’ve been warned.
These are not low doses of minerals. For major minerals like potassium calcium zinc these amounts are low, but for trace minerals like Se, I, Mo these are often quite high amounts. It's this kind of presentation of mineral protocols that causes people to get screwed up- I've seen it in cases like from the Iodine protocol (I benefited a lot from it personally, as have many others, but some people get fucked up from it even when they follow the instructions properly) and how the prominent posters on CureZone flatly deny to people who are having it backfire on them that Iodine or Selenium can be dangerous. It's like when people casually recommend that you take magnesium supplements like nothing could go wrong, or molybdenum for copper toxicity. It's like people on RPF (or mainstream health advice as well) saying that you need more calcium, while many people will be ruined from eating less than the RDA of that mineral for just a few weeks.

The types of statements people are making in this thread might seem completely innocent, but they can actually be very harmful. The people who read this forum aren't' just registered users. I think there are plenty of lurkers as well, and they may only grow in number as time passes. What is said here has the potential to help or harm many people for years to come.

Yes, if mercury is not your problem or if you do chelation the wrong way then ofc it can fuck you up. It has for me, in fact, immediately after it cured me.

Not all chelation is quackery. I specifically mentioned the dangers of IV chelation with those fake "experts" in mind- I had to avoid some myself. Eg see this link for examples of what they are like: What NOT To Do
Redistribution and die-off symptoms do not feel the same, at least they did not for me. If anyone told you to "push through" and increase your dose of ALA by almost 10x early on in the process then they are out of their mind, that's very dangerous. It is very fallacious and dishonest to conflate ALL chelation approaches and advice with the concept of chelation as a whole, and to ignore that many people have healed themselves through certain approaches to it, and also to focus only on my mercury comments when for the purposes of people in this thread I was actually talking even more about nutritional minerals that you get toxic in. It is also fallacious to conflate my mention of chelation therapy with just chelation of mercury, when I also referred to it as a means (to be approached very cautiously, of course) to fix toxicities of nutritional minerals, which can also cause these types of serious health problems involving shutdown of enzymes, such as FAD.

The purpose of my post was not to derail the thread (and let's be realistic, there's no way it will derail the thread), it was to call attention to the dangerous and inaccurate statements relating to the "cause of ASD", and the cavalier discussion of taking minerals, which can be very dangerous even in these amounts if you take them without knowing your status, and to point out that being toxic in minerals, whether mercury or any number of nutritional minerals, is probably a very common cause for the people here of FAD being shut off, and that in those common cases, it will not be fixed by taking minerals, it will only be fixed by getting rid of the harmful mineral excesses.


A lot of us are sick here because we had imbalance in the first place, which taking finasteride/sp pushed us over the edge. I highly doubt this is due to autistic-levels of mercury and aluminum. However, absolutely we are sicker than ever due to vaccines.

But most of us are not damaged by vaccines...that's something for the newer generation. We either have epigenetic issues due to fin/sp, some type of imbalance or the gut was compromised, which we know fin alters gut microbiome. This can lead to sibo and other issues, which leads to the depletion of io/se/mo and b2.

I totally understand the issues with mercury and aluminum, but I am almost certain that they are not responsible for (us in this case) this as you are making it seem. Vaccine-induced autism is a completely different story though.
Again, I didn't say that mercury and aluminum are the cause in everyone's case of FAD problems, especially for people above 35. I was not mentioning them in particular for PFS cases, I was referring for these cases (your guys' cases, though some of you actually are showing reactions to these minerals that MIGHT indicate mercury poisoning) as being potentially caused or maintained by potential toxicities of ANY mineral. Even if you didn't have it before PFS, once you crash you suddenly become vulnerable to overaccumulating minerals. This is why this should be such a huge concern here. You might improve your body in lots of ways after fin such that the effects of the drug itself have worn off, but by now from all this time with low MT, glut, ventilation, bile, etc you have accumulated too much Zinc (which can PFS symptoms almost exactly when you are toxic in it, btw, and taking vit B6 alongside it often can make this worse or enable this), or sulfur, or selenium, or copper, or manganese, or anything else, and so you won't be able to heal until you fix that new mineral toxicity, which the body will not be able to fix/get rid of on its own at this point. And continuing to think of it merely as a "post-drug syndrome" or as "b2 deficiency" will prevent people in these cases from identifying what has become the real primary problem. And if a mineral toxicity like that is blocking your FAD enzymes, taking these 3 minerals will not restore it. You will only risk becoming toxic in those as well, since your body's ability to regulate mineral balance and excrete them has been compromised.

And I mentioned ASD only in reference to the guy's claims about it regarding this protocol. I am well aware most people here do not have that problem (though a fair number who don't have it will still have hidden mercury toxicity, and would benefit greatly if they could safely get rid of it).

I am saying this because people will frame the issues people face here in just one particular way, and that may be true for many people but not for everyone, and this one way of thinking can then become a mental prison or roadblock to finding out the cause of other people's cases. So for example, in lots of cases SIBO might deplete these minerals and b2, and so you will get better if you take them, but lots of other people will be missing this function in their body because they are toxic in one or more minerals, which blocks it, and so they will mistakenly take these minerals and potentially become toxic in them, too.

In my own personal case, not that it will apply to everyone, I found during last year that supplementing extra vitamins or amino acids or getting my SIBO under control were all mostly irrelevant to restoring these lost functionalities in my body, but that chelating away the mineral toxicity that was really the cause would fix me instantly. Like these enzymes would all start working again at once. Sometimes it takes a few days, or a week, depending on the chelator or on the changes in body chemistry that the former toxicity induced (like if it put you in alkalosis you need a few days to lower bicarbonate before you are fixed). But lots of people here might be chasing a dead end that could harm them by taking minerals, when what they do need is chelation (approached carefully and cautiously, of course- we need to develop a set of guidelines for this in another thread).

It’s frustrating and something that’s understandable due to everyone here wanting to be cured-but there’s a trend of threads being derailed by other people’s protocols or know it all stances that go against the premise or program being discussed, which winds up leading to members not following said protocol long enough to really see if it works. If dude has such a hard on for chelation/mercury, he should start his own thread on it where others can experiment.

I’m fairly certain there’s a decent percentage of us here who have walked that insane (in my opinion) path and want nothing more to do with it.
Edit- I’ll just add that there are tons of horror stories of especially cfs type people following the chelation path as it’s laid out and even getting feedback by chelation “experts” and ending up much much worse off.
The only "know it all stance" I've seen here are the claims by the person/people heavily pushing the protocol. I did not say that this protocol would not be helpful to many people (taking or eating these minerals separately earlier last year was very helpful to me, for instance). I am warning against the complacent attitude in so many posts here about taking these minerals when you are already in a state where your body's ability to excrete minerals if it gets too much is reduced. It is perversely ironic that you use the phrase "hard on", because that is an ability that many people's bodies will no longer will no longer possess if they poison themselves with some of these minerals, alongside many other functions.

Yes, chelation "experts" generally should not be trusted, though there are exceptions. That's where the horror stories generally come from. Chelation, whether for mercury or for a toxicity of a nutritional metal, should not be conflated with some people's dangerous or false advice about it.

That's why I warned everyone considering it to be very cautious and to start with EXTREMELY small doses if they do go ahead with it. Eg no matter who you are if you take ALA start with just 2 mg or so in case you do secretly have mercury poisoning, because taking a normal capsule that is sold as a supplement in every drug store can kill you if you are mercury toxic.
 
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Maxin

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Jan 12, 2018
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The iodine moly and selenium are within RDA limits in this protocol so I’m unsure of why your saying to be careful with these high doses?

Greg on mercury-
"Yes the mercury is higher than most, but still lower than Singapore. Singapore on average is 3.3, and I do have an 18 from somewhere. The average though in the kids, if you take out Singapore is around 0.35, and the cut-off is 0.4, so they are generally lower. I have around 75 so far.

In contrast the lower cut-off for Molybdenum is 0.05, which is the average that I have for the kids, so they are low.

Similarly the average for Selenium is 0.78 with the cut off at 0.7, but 80% are below the bottom cut-off.

Given that Selenium and Molybdenum both determine functional B2 and then this determines functional B12, all ASD kids would fit with being either low in Selenium and/or Molybdenum. All ASD kids are functionally deficient in vitamin B2 (as one would expect from the Se and Mo data). Low functional B2 leads to low functional B12. All kids have low functional B12. Low B12 alone is associated with mental delay. In fact given the low functional B12 levels you would totally expect them to have mental delay, which they all have. Further low functional B12 is also associated with dementia, and the biochemistry of dementia is very, very similar to the biochemistry of autism.

Do yourself a favour and go and learn about Minamata disease, it is very different to autism.

In Minamata disease the levels of mercury in the hair were 705 ppm, NOT 2.2. In the non-symptomatic residents (ie those who were exposed but didn't get the disease) the levels were 191 ppm (not 2.2). The average level in Japan is 4 ppm, so the child has less than the average level (in fact about half) of all the people in Japan.

Peter, the cataracts may be affecting your vision, but they should not be affecting your logic. Even the child with the highest level of mercury that I have is only 18, which is one tenth of the level seen in the asymptomatic individuals in Japan who were exposed as part of the Minimata catastrophe. Apart from that all but one child has lower levels that the average level of healthy people in Japan. Further the average level of mercury in the ASD is less than one tenth of the levels seen in the average person in Japan, thus the average in ASD is 0.35, one tenth of the average in Japan which is 4 ppm. See [www.bu.edu/sustainability/minamata-...Apl_WmP8RxuqO4BmNQVZdr5_qJGdog_pJe-JfCMalZGk) Time to put the argument to bed. It is totally non-founded or supported by data.

Regards,
Greg"
 
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Maxin

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And yes, our soil in the is is depleted of these minerals. Not to mention removing iodine from our salt. So not only do you get mothers who are deficient, but then they have children who are then born with these deficiencies.
 

Shuddering

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2019
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The iodine moly and selenium are within RDA limits in this protocol so I’m unsure of why your saying to be careful with these high doses?

Greg on mercury-
"Yes the mercury is higher than most, but still lower than Singapore. Singapore on average is 3.3, and I do have an 18 from somewhere. The average though in the kids, if you take out Singapore is around 0.35, and the cut-off is 0.4, so they are generally lower. I have around 75 so far.

...

Do yourself a favour and go and learn about Minamata disease, it is very different to autism.

In Minamata disease the levels of mercury in the hair were 705 ppm, NOT 2.2. In the non-symptomatic residents (ie those who were exposed but didn't get the disease) the levels were 191 ppm (not 2.2). The average level in Japan is 4 ppm, so the child has less than the average level (in fact about half) of all the people in Japan.
Lol, is he referring to hair tests for mercury? Those do not measure body levels of mercury. In minamata disease the levels in hair are so high because they are adults and their bodies are excreting it. Cutler mentioned that many people work in industries where they are exposed to mercury and are able to excrete it fine, and that people who don't excrete it well tend to quit those jobs quickly. I think he or someone else mentioned that a lot of the Iraqis who were poisoned with mercury in grain shipments naturally excreted much or most of it after some months.

This is different from having it injected directly into bloodstream as a baby. It puts your body into a stress metabolism from a very young age, and you never get out of it on your own. I tried lots of different dietary arrangements, lots of nutrients, etc, but nothing ever could strengthen my body enough to get rid of the mercury itself, which was my real problem all along. Only chelation could improve my body enough to escape that trap, and the same is true of most autistic people. People like me and them, dont have our bodies fix themselves if this has been going on for years without improvement. Such people's bodies need outside help.

This guy doesn't get that HTMA DOES NOT SHOW BODY LEVELS OF MINERALS, especially when you are poisoned and you don't use minerals well. They build up in organs, making you worse. This is why autistic children often show up with ZERO mercury on hair tests and blood tests. But they still are cured or made much better with chelation, because it is hiding in their organs. The body is so shocked and weakened by these injections of poison that it cannot excrete the mercury like most adults could. That is why there is no mercury in their hair. Because they are extremely sick with it. But this guy thinks the same way a doctor would- "oh this test has you with a low value of something, it must not be a problem / let's supplement with it to restore your status of it."

What an arrogant attitude- "do yourself a favor". This guy should do himself a favor and read about all the cases where autism is greatly improved or CURED by chelation of mercury. How many cases can he show where they are cured by giving some mineral supplements? I bet if you looked you could find plenty of cases though where people are made significantly worse by taking these minerals. He is basing his claims of effectiveness on a an unproven supposition, that just happens to align with his own long-time research interests. Right. Sure.


In contrast the lower cut-off for Molybdenum is 0.05, which is the average that I have for the kids, so they are low.

Similarly the average for Selenium is 0.78 with the cut off at 0.7, but 80% are below the bottom cut-off.

Given that Selenium and Molybdenum both determine functional B2 and then this determines functional B12, all ASD kids would fit with being either low in Selenium and/or Molybdenum. All ASD kids are functionally deficient in vitamin B2 (as one would expect from the Se and Mo data). Low functional B2 leads to low functional B12. All kids have low functional B12. Low B12 alone is associated with mental delay. In fact given the low functional B12 levels you would totally expect them to have mental delay, which they all have. Further low functional B12 is also associated with dementia, and the biochemistry of dementia is very, very similar to the biochemistry of autism.
And he's saying that molybdenum is low in their hairtests, so that means they need more of it? This guy has so many misconceptions about HTMA. Is it not very possible that in plenty of cases it is low in hair because the body is too poisoned to use it, and taking more will just make you toxic in it, like Helen implied almost happened to him?
Same is true of selenium. Multiple people here have said they had low selenium on hair test but they crashed from taking it. That is a toxicity blocking their use of selenium, not a true lack of selenium.

Given that Selenium and Molybdenum both determine functional B2 and then this determines functional B12, all ASD kids would fit with being either low in Selenium and/or Molybdenum. All ASD kids are functionally deficient in vitamin B2 (as one would expect from the Se and Mo data). Low functional B2 leads to low functional B12. All kids have low functional B12. Low B12 alone is associated with mental delay. In fact given the low functional B12 levels you would totally expect them to have mental delay, which they all have. Further low functional B12 is also associated with dementia, and the biochemistry of dementia is very, very similar to the biochemistry of autism.
Selenium and Molybdenum determine functional b2 and b12 ONLY WHEN THE BODY IS NOT POISONED AND THUS CAN FUNCTION PROPERLY. Why doesn't he get this? If he knows so much that he can such sweeping claims he should know better. Yes, ASD kids are functionally deficient in b2, but that's not because of lack of Se and Mo. He would really have us think that a bunch of kids all across the US started missing these two minerals in the late 1980s, right when they started injecting thimerosal and tons of live viruses and bacteria and bio-tech and food industry waste products on everyone, and that it is a coincidence that these things happen to just line up in time? What happened to this missing Molybdenum and Selenium, then? Where did it go? What teleported it out of their bodies or the food supply?

"Associated with dementia." Associated with. Lol, this is the language of idiot dweeb academics, who think proper scientific methodology involves abandoning notions of objective truth and direct causality. The technology and advances in knowledge that created the modern world were not developed by this type of thought process, by this perverse world view. No, most of them came from reasoning like a human. There are multiple types of dementia, different things can cause it. Mercury and aluminum are one. And Mercury causes low functional b2 and b12. They are almost never caused by lack of Mo and Se. They are caused almost always because of poisoning. He doesn't get this basic principle of how the body works and how disease works. But he makes these massive claims.

"the biochemistry of dementia is very, very similar to the biochemistry of autism" - tf, when he says "biochemistry" he just means some of the same enzymes are suppressed. Yeah, that's not the ultimate cause. It is a major and usually wrong assumption to think that when enzymes are shut off it is always because of lack of the needed minerals. Usually it is because of too many minerals.


Peter, the cataracts may be affecting your vision, but they should not be affecting your logic. Even the child with the highest level of mercury that I have is only 18, which is one tenth of the level seen in the asymptomatic individuals in Japan who were exposed as part of the Minimata catastrophe. Apart from that all but one child has lower levels that the average level of healthy people in Japan. Further the average level of mercury in the ASD is less than one tenth of the levels seen in the average person in Japan, thus the average in ASD is 0.35, one tenth of the average in Japan which is 4 ppm. See [www.bu.edu/sustainability/minamata-...Apl_WmP8RxuqO4BmNQVZdr5_qJGdog_pJe-JfCMalZGk) Time to put the argument to bed. It is totally non-founded or supported by data.

Regards,
Greg"
"Peter, the cataracts may be affecting your vision, but they should not be affecting your logic."

This arrogant fucking jackass of a biochemist. What about all the cases where these disorders (not just autism, but a great many of the health problems people born in last 30 years, especially males, tend to get) are CURED by chelation of mercury and aluminum? Do those just not exist? Were all these families and individuals who posted about it on the internet lying? Was it all a ploy to sell some obscure chelator supplements?

How many people who could have gotten cured in the end will not because of comments like these? It's disgusting.

One more time: hair mercury != body mercury. They are two different things. In Cutler's hair test book he shows lots of hair tests from people who are not mercury poisoned but still have a little mercury in their hair. That is because most people are exposed to some amount of it from food, environemnt, etc, and if you are healthy you excrete this. But if it is injected into your bloodstream as a baby, that often leads to very different results.


Note: @Maxin I'm criticizing him, not you. I'm actually glad you posted his comments here, because now I can see that my original criticism of him was completely justified- his claims about autism are even more idiotic than I thought.


And yes, our soil in the is is depleted of these minerals. Not to mention removing iodine from our salt. So not only do you get mothers who are deficient, but then they have children who are then born with these deficiencies.
Lol, the soil is Se deficient in Europe and China (in some provinces tho there is too much) and Africa. Maybe there you'll want to supplement Selenium. in the US there is plenty. And in the US there is iodine in the soil, except a few regions like Great lakes. And if you get out of state dairy products, seafood, vegetables, etc you'll get iodine enough to function (especially if you avoid PUFA which depletes it), though many people myself included can and have benefited from supplementing with much more, but it can still be quite dangerous.

I did not see that the iodine he recommended was in the microgram range, yes that's safe for far more people, and with these amounts of selenium he recommends that actually might be too little. I only saw larger amounts for some people in this thread. But supplementing with the amounts of Se and Mo recommended, though they will help lots of people as they did for me, will also harm a number of people. Recommending the same amounts for everyone at random is not safe, especially when because of hidden toxicities in nutritional or toxic minerals (ie-people with bad chronic health issues) they might be unable to use and excrete these minerals so they will just accumulate them and risk getting poisoned with them.