I got copper for everyone! Sky high tissue copper. Hair mineral analysis

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#1
Could not find any better place for my Hair analysis results so Im going to post it here.
Might need to move it somewhere better


So I got my results today and am really shocked about this high copper.
I got copper and zinc tested in blood and both were too low.
Now in this Hair test Zinc is too low as well, but copper is hiiiiigh.
So my body is kind of retaining copper.
I thought of [mention]gbolduev[/mention] zinc+manganese (both are low in tissue)

I got some problems to solve I wrote about in this thread: http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=55

Im not sure If this high copper got something to do with it or it is just a problem on its own to solve.
 

Attachments

dante

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2017
75
14
8
#2
I am not very erudite but I don't understand this one thing about hair test- our body Generally releases toxins via sweat, feces and urine. So ,what does high copper in the hair mean -- is it bio-unavailable copper in tissues or is the body excreting too much copper which is being shown in the hair test ?
For eg, your lead may be low in the hair but sequestered in the bones but when the body gets right minerals for the bones, hair lead levels go up as the body is excreting it.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#3
dante post_id=861 time=1507628020 user_id=109 said:
I am not very erudite but I don't understand this one thing about hair test- our body Generally releases toxins via sweat, feces and urine. So ,what does high copper in the hair mean -- is it bio-unavailable copper in tissues or is the body excreting too much copper which is being shown in the hair test ?
For eg, your lead may be low in the hair but sequestered in the bones but when the body gets right minerals for the bones, hair lead levels go up as the body is excreting it.
I think hair test is used because its similar to tissue. So I would say its biounavailable copper in tissues.
I read somewhere that copper would be excreted through bile.
 
Oct 3, 2017
9
0
0
#4
[mention]HerrFisch[/mention],

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
 

dante

Well-Known Member
Oct 6, 2017
75
14
8
#5
HerrFisch post_id=862 time=1507630115 user_id=114 said:
dante post_id=861 time=1507628020 user_id=109 said:
I am not very erudite but I don't understand this one thing about hair test- our body Generally releases toxins via sweat, feces and urine. So ,what does high copper in the hair mean -- is it bio-unavailable copper in tissues or is the body excreting too much copper which is being shown in the hair test ?
For eg, your lead may be low in the hair but sequestered in the bones but when the body gets right minerals for the bones, hair lead levels go up as the body is excreting it.
I think hair test is used because its similar to tissue. So I would say its biounavailable copper in tissues.
I read somewhere that copper would be excreted through bile.
I really doubt that hair tissue mineral analysis would be the same as let's say liver tissue mineral analysis or bone mineral analysis. A classic example can be low ceruloplasmin but decent copper intake. Wouldn't most of the copper in that case be kept in the liver and less to other vital organs ?
As far excretion is concerned , some copper is excreted via urine. There is a 24 hour urinary copper test also used to monitor copper levels but it's very costly from what I know
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#6
Still double the chart size of copper in hair gotta say something.

Good Quote from [mention]gbolduev[/mention]
Cell is already overloaded with calcium with slow oxidizers. this supports their sympathetic nervous system. It makes their heart go faster. You don't want to give slow oxidizer calcium and copper, you want to make slow oxidizer release those and actually lose them.

On ARL programs it takes a year for you to start dumping copper. Copper is retained by slow oxidizers to support the adrenal gland.

When methylation and adrenal gland becomes better, copper is being dumped with calcium.

That is why dont stuff yourself with vitamin D supps. this will lower your ceruloplasmin and wont allow you to use copper properly.

Vitamin D is regulatory same as vitamin A. dont overload on vitamin A also. otherwise it will lower your zinc. Zinc and b12 what takes carotene and take it from the liver and turns it into A, also vitamin A binding protein is zinc based. this is what starts the metabolism of retionic acid.

taking all these active vitamins you are screwing yourself over.
Methylation is definately down on me.
 

Aleksandr

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2017
1,265
634
113
#7
@gbolduev you said not to take hormones and vitamins, they have a receptor feedback issue. But taking minerals is ok?
 

Ivy

Member
Oct 5, 2017
42
20
8
#9
unexamined_whimsy post_id=863 time=1507631044 user_id=60 said:
@HerrFisch,

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
hey,
can you explain how water retention is a typical sign of low zinc/high copper? what other symptoms would you consider classic?
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#10
unexamined_whimsy post_id=863 time=1507631044 user_id=60 said:
[mention]HerrFisch[/mention]

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
My bloodwork shows:
Progesterone: 19,8 ng/dl (range 5-14,9)
Estrogen: 32 pg/ml (range 11 -43)

I dont know if that Estrogen is high. But I consider it on the high "side".
Yes some water retention is for sure.
Right now Im at 25mg Zinc because my Progesterne is already that high.
and as Gbold said Zinc increases Prog.

[mention]Ivy[/mention] I think its more the Estrogen that causes water retention.
 
Oct 3, 2017
9
0
0
#11
Ivy post_id=897 time=1507652163 user_id=101 said:
unexamined_whimsy post_id=863 time=1507631044 user_id=60 said:
@HerrFisch,

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
hey,
can you explain how water retention is a typical sign of low zinc/high copper? what other symptoms would you consider classic?
High copper mimics all the symptoms of high estrogen: water retention, tendency to weep, irritability, digestive issues, and either an excessive or absent libido, to the extent that one can hypothesise that copper somehow directly increases estrogen. Zinc is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances with a very large number of positive testimonials behind it. Zinc is known to displace copper and so there’s that connection. Before getting into Ray Peat I was supplementing resverstrol which is alleged to remove copper (also stated by gbolduev) and I had the classic low estrogen symptoms like joint pain and exceptional muscle tone. Joint pains are seemingly a common complaint with resverstrol but apart from gbolduev no one has tied it to its ability to remove copper.
 
Oct 3, 2017
9
0
0
#12
HerrFisch post_id=898 time=1507652389 user_id=114 said:
unexamined_whimsy post_id=863 time=1507631044 user_id=60 said:
@HerrFisch

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
My bloodwork shows:
Progesterone: 19,8 ng/dl (range 5-14,9)
Estrogen: 32 pg/ml (range 11 -43)

I g s know if that Estrogen is high. But I consider it on the high "side".
Yes some water retention is for sure.
Right now Im at 25mg Zinc because my Progesterne is already that high.
and as Gbold said Zinc increases Prog.

@Ivy I think its more the Estrogen that causes water retention.
I think the overall experience with all the Ray Peat inspired supplements, and bodybuilder wisdom has shown that estrogen may not be the only culprit behind ‘estrogenic’ symptoms. Both personally, and testimonials show that supplemental progesterone causes water retention, and even unwanted breast growth.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#13
unexamined_whimsy post_id=908 time=1507657647 user_id=60 said:
Ivy post_id=897 time=1507652163 user_id=101 said:
unexamined_whimsy post_id=863 time=1507631044 user_id=60 said:
[mention]HerrFisch[/mention] Fisch,

Do you have the classic low zinc/high copper symptoms tantamount to high estrogen, such as water retention?

I feel that years of pounding calf liver (allegedly rich in copper) in the name of Ray Peat, always made me feel worse in that I would get severe water retention symptoms for days after consuming it. Since I've been off liver and anything containing copper, and supplementing with 50mg zinc (said to displace copper) a day my symptoms are much improved.
hey,
can you explain how water retention is a typical sign of low zinc/high copper? what other symptoms would you consider classic?
High copper mimics all the symptoms of high estrogen: water retention, tendency to weep, irritability, digestive issues, and either an excessive or absent libido, to the extent that one can hypothesise that copper somehow directly increases estrogen. Zinc is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances with a very large number of positive testimonials behind it. Zinc is known to displace copper and so there’s that connection. Before getting into Ray Peat I was supplementing resverstrol which is alleged to remove copper (also stated by gbolduev) and I had the classic low estrogen symptoms like joint pain and exceptional muscle tone. Joint pains are seemingly a common complaint with resverstrol but apart from gbolduev no one has tied it to its ability to remove copper.
How much resveratrol did you take to lower your estrogen that much ?

Resveratrol chelates copper and therefore lowers estrogen.
I guess its like when you take progesterone it chelates zinc so progesterone gets down.
It just chelates the precursors.
 
Oct 3, 2017
9
0
0
#14
HerrFisch post_id=911 time=1507658379 user_id=114 said:
unexamined_whimsy post_id=908 time=1507657647 user_id=60 said:
Ivy post_id=897 time=1507652163 user_id=101 said:
hey,
can you explain how water retention is a typical sign of low zinc/high copper? what other symptoms would you consider classic?
High copper mimics all the symptoms of high estrogen: water retention, tendency to weep, irritability, digestive issues, and either an excessive or absent libido, to the extent that one can hypothesise that copper somehow directly increases estrogen. Zinc is one of the most anti-estrogenic substances with a very large number of positive testimonials behind it. Zinc is known to displace copper and so there’s that connection. Before getting into Ray Peat I was supplementing resverstrol which is alleged to remove copper (also stated by gbolduev) and I had the classic low estrogen symptoms like joint pain and exceptional muscle tone. Joint pains are seemingly a common complaint with resverstrol but apart from gbolduev no one has tied it to its ability to remove copper.
How much resveratrol did you take to lower your estrogen that much ?

Resveratrol chelates copper and therefore lowers estrogen.
I guess its like when you take progesterone it chelates zinc so progesterone gets down.
It just chelates the precursors.
500mg a day of 98% purity resverstrol daily.

Yeah, I too think the theory that progesterone/thyroid severely depleting precursors is quite plausible.
 

Nina

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2017
1,144
600
113
The Netherlands
#15
Interesting read:

http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperElimDoc.htm
http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm

You might also be dumping excess copper because your adrenal activity seems decent enough with a high sodium potassium ratio.
 
Oct 4, 2017
1,651
269
83
Europe
LOCATION
Europe
#16
Nina post_id=1204 time=1507892338 user_id=126 said:
Interesting read:
Many Thanks, agree!
"It is to be noted that the major internal cause of a copper toxicity problem is a reduced ability to cope with stress. It is the intent of your nutritional program to increase your ability to cope with stress, hence avoiding any future excessive buildup of copper. Many of the distressing symptoms associated with copper toxicity are due to a stress-induced zinc deficiency."
That is why I got help from a method increasing ability to cope with stress = resilience. It is a good addition to a mineral program, because anyway they will put pressure to change, on the ANS.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#17
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

Problem->body regulates down by lowering adrenals,thyroid, methylation, etc-> copper would stimulate /be needed for those-> body makes copper biounavailable-> excess copper.

Maybe its even a circle, copper is needed for Mitochondria electron chain. So if copper is biounavailable maybe mitochondria is not working as it should?(high lactate) Therefore body regulates down?

So everything that helps adrenals, thyroid, methylation or metabolism in general helps temporarily.
But if there is a bigger problem it will be worse long term.
 

Nina

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2017
1,144
600
113
The Netherlands
#18
HerrFisch post_id=1210 time=1507896192 user_id=114 said:
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

Problem->body regulates down by lowering adrenals,thyroid, methylation, etc-> copper would stimulate /be needed for those-> body makes copper biounavailable-> excess copper.

Maybe its even a circle, copper is needed for Mitochondria electron chain. So if copper is biounavailable maybe mitochondria is not working as it should?(high lactate) Therefore body regulates down?

So everything that helps adrenals, thyroid, methylation or metabolism in general helps temporarily.
But if there is a bigger problem it will be worse long term.
Yes, the (temporary) stimulation from things like exercise, caffeine, increased stress of any kind makes your adrenals work harder and it increases ceruloplasmin levels which then makes copper more bioavailable but when this ends you might end up worse than before because your adrenals are getting more and more depleted. Can't get better without finding the actual cause.
 

HerrFisch

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2017
1,169
534
113
yes
#19
Im not sure if only zinc would help lowering those high copper levels.
Zinc will only help to stop getting more copper.
And vitamin c will chelate copper in the blood.
But high tissue copper is biounavailable.

I mean ranges of copper are from 1 -4 and mine is 16.
Thats f**** high. Its not even on the sheet no more :lol:
 

Aleksandr

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2017
1,265
634
113
#20
HerrFisch post_id=1344 time=1508008351 user_id=114 said:
Im not sure if only zinc would help lowering those high copper levels.
Zinc will only help to stop getting more copper.
And vitamin c will chelate copper in the blood.
But high tissue copper is biounavailable.

I mean ranges of copper are from 1 -4 and mine is 16.
Thats f**** high. Its not even on the sheet no more :lol:
Copper is a seditative mineral. What oxidation type did the test say you were? Slow 1? Slow 2?
I made a thread here that might interest you; http://www.hackstasis.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=108

It seems like for a start you just want to increase your oxidation rate; fasting, exercising, avoiding carbs, eating more protein. Maybe a few months of zinc and manganese. All of this should get the calcium and copper out of your cells and raise potassium, phorphorus and sodium. That should increase your oxidation type to slow 3 or 4 (a more balanced type) and from there you just work on fine tuning the ratios. Thats where i'm at now, i'm a slow 4 (already have an active lifestyle so it makes sense) but my sodium is too high and my magnesium too low, phosphorus too low. Its mostly diet tweaks for me atm I think.

So you might spend 6 months with a new diet and lifestyle then retest your hair and find magnesium is too low (i suspect all the sedative minerals will be lower if you follow that plan - even if your magnesium is good as it is, it might lower more) so from there you'd just supplement magnesium or whatever you need to. Maybe a few more diet tweaks too.

At least i hope thats how it works XD