FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)

Helen

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Check the ‘detox protocol for dummies’ thread. It’s all there. It’s hard to follow every step since it changes occasionally, but I think I’ve followed it pretty strictly (HCL instead of bile acids and no Hydrogen water).
Sometimes it is better to use Phenylalanine instead of tyrosine for this. You can test it out.
 
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Continuous Heal

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I'm very interested in understanding the bile acid and phospholipid connection.

Elsewhere in the forum you will have seen me indicate that phosphatidylserine is the only supplement in my entire struggle with PFS that I can say for certain helped me, and helped me meaningfully.

I am also in the midst of a digestive struggle, with h pylori, and general discomfort over the last year or longer. Could the weakened resistance in my stomach be connected to a lack of bile acids? Did the PS prove so helpful because I've been unable to generate my own?
 

Yura

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Heh it's funny I can feel on my left side lower stomach my large intestine full of fucking shit. I can move with it. It's like a snake.. Dehydration + lack of bile = shit is dry and looks like rabbit poop lol.. Only thing that can help is like 1 l of water with like tbsp of sea salt drinked at once first thing in the morning. This will whip the colon with the salted water. Otherwise without bile as a lubricant. Nothing is moving.. I am wondering what will happened first. Bile production or colon cancer heh..
 

Kjbigman

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Here is a theory.


Finasteride is a progestin like progesterone. IT raises potassium in the cell. By doing this it increases metabolism of people who take it. Sugar metabolism is closed in hairloss people and taking finasteride bypasses the regulation, same as taking progesterone , and same as taking thyroid hormone. This causes oxidative stress. Finasteride by binding NADPH kills glutathione and recycling . This causes faster metabolism but with oxidative stress. When you go off finasterid metabolism goes back down, but now it can not even lift up at all. Since you killed all glutathione enzymes, they simply dont work now. So sugar metabolism does not go up. Same situation as steroid diabetes. Or diabetes that you can get from taking progesterone.

Now you are stuck with very low metabolism and anything that you use to speed it up contantly backfires. Sugar - no good, salt no good, Thyroid= inflammation. Everything that you use to speed makes you feel better with on symptom and makes you super inflammed. To open up the metabolism you need to support glutathione enzymes , glutathione transferase and glutathione peroxidase. This will open up your sugar metabolism and it will metabolize finasteride out of your body. Since it is still in your body.

Also since finasteride kills NADPH and glutathione recylcling , it lowers glutathione levels. glutathione breaks bonds in glycoprotein B. Which is reponsible for virus replication. If there is no glutathione there is a a lot of glycoprotein B and you get mono or EBV. Virus is an outcome of low glutathione.



Finasteride is a progestin which does not convert to cortisol or metabolites like progesterone does. Since it does not convert to metabolites as progesterone it lowers NADPH. This takes down 5 alpha reductase. Also since progestin does not convert into cortisol, it puts pressure on cortisol and this weakly inhibits the enzyme that breaks down cortisol which is 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms while on fin are coming from inhibiting 5 beta reductase enzyme. the higher dosage of Fin , the more you inhibit this enzyme. and the higher cortisol goes.. 5 beta reductase is the enzyme which is responsible for bile acids. This is why progestins stop bile production. Actually progesterone in certain cases could do the same.

So while you are taking finasteride, you lower NADPH and you lower NADP , you stop 5alpha reductase and you stop 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms come from 5 beta reductase . And the higher fin dose the more you inhibit this enzyme. This is why if you found the optimal dosage not to inhibit this enzyme you would be only inhibiting 5 alpha reductase and would not have problems while on fin.


Now. After you come off fin. I assume. your NADPH production spikes back up really high. Since fin was blocking it. while you were on it. . This is why you see high DHT in some of the PFS guys. This high NADPH inhibits 5 beta reductase even further. Since 5 alpha reductase works on NADPH, but 5 beta reductase's end product is NADPH. SO when you come off fin, your NADPH production is high , and 5 beta gets inhibited even more. Your bile acids are zero now. your fat solubles are zero, and also your cortisol is high and aldo is high , since 5 beta reductase does not break them down. You are in alkalosis. and your fat digestion is zero.

So once again. When you are on fin , since fin raises metabolism but does not convert to cortisol like progesterone should have. It lowers both 5 alpha and 5 beta reductase.

But when you go off fin, this increases 5 alpha back to normal and beyond , but it totally inhibits 5 beta even more since NADPH decreases 5 beta


This is why andro works( inhibits 5 alpha) , 5 alpha inhibitors work, licorice works( increases cortisol) and this pushed 5 beta higher, dexamethasone , and progesterone. amino acids, zinc finger , RU lowers metabolism and increases cortisol and 5 beta increased . they all decrease need for cortisol and this increases 5 beta reductase.

So PFS is a imbalance between NADP and NADPH after you come off FIN. NADPH is what 5 alpha works on, and NADP is what 5 beta works on. NADPH is also made out of NADP. So this makes 5 beta and 5 alpha 2 enzymes that go opposite of each other. NADP to NADPH ratio. when NADP high 5 beta is higher, when NADPH is high , 5 beta is lower.


We will be trying many things to put 5 beta back online.





This is basically more precise explanation of the receptor theory but from enzymes view.

For those who are still taking fin, you can always adjust dosage so you dont inhibit 5 beta reductase too much , and this way you will be on fin with minimal sides . If you adjust the dosage lower, this will grow even more hair since you wont be experiencing protein wasting hairloss like in hyperthyroidism. Fin is just uncontrollable progesterone. Fin does not convert to cortisol, but causes the rise of metabolism. When metabolism rises progesterone converts to cortisol to make more sugar and aminos. But fin cant convert , and if you take too high of a dose it is like being hyperthyroid. Puts too much pressure on cortisol and closes down 5 beta reductase with bad sides coming from 5 beta reductase

IF you test your 5 beta reductase and make sure it is good, you can stay on fin without sides


For people who went off the fin . @TubZy and I are trying different protocols to fix this situation more precise. But you have many ways to manipulate NADP NADPH ratio, knowing this mechanism that we outlined above

I hope this explains why people feel bad on anything that increases 5 alpha reductase.



Finasteride. binds NADPH. NADPH recycles glutathione. lack of glutathione causes complete closure of sugar metabolism. Since glutathione is needed to get rid of hydrogen peroxide and glutathione is needed in glutathione transferase to get rid of toxins and drugs, including finasteride. So finasteride stops its own metabolism and I would assume can even build up thru the years.



So you need to increase glutathione transferase and also increase NADPH . glutathione transferase has histidine in it. Also it asks for tyrosine serine and cysteine to activate the glutathione. So when your go toxic in finasteride or other drugs you can go low on tyrosine, since tyrosine will be used for glutathione transferase and tyrosine kinase. This causes low dopamine ( sex drive) low thyroid, and lack of bioavailable copper and vitamin C ( emotions) since when the body becomes toxic it goes into alkalosis ( uses hydrogen for redox reactions) , and this does not allow dopamine conversion into adrenaline which is done with copper and ascorbate. ( copper stays biounavailable and you can get many symptoms of its toxicity) So you can try to take tyrosine or Phenylalanine( which is better) with lyposomal glutathione( this will increases glutathione transferase and get rid of build up of fin), b 50 vitamins( not methylated) , vitamin C, eat good fats( butter) and take bile acids. and shilagit , also cysteine selenium histidine. and serine. Also you can take SOD components, zinc copper manganese chromium. this will metabolize finasteride out of your body.

Basically this will allow your sugar metabolism to go back up on line, which will allow your body to use adrenaline, Since if there is no sugar, there is no CO2 production in the cell. If there is no CO2 then body cant breath it out. And it will lower adrenaline. And close the sugar metabolism. And it will use protein for energy, which will have side effects as high ammonia and brain fog.


Finasteride impairs bile flow, and impairs 5 beta reductase.
5 beta reductase makes your bile acids, without bile acids you will have a build up of cholesterol and malabsorption of fats. and mainly phospholipids and you will have bilirubin stones in your gallbladder which completely blocks all your bile flow.

this will cause deficiency of lipids needed for the brain , sex, fat soluble vitamins etc and you will have very thick blood since cholesterol wont be used and wont be disposed off.

This is why I said to do liver flushes all the time. Also you can take bile acids. chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid. 5 beta reductase makes those . These 2 acids will dilute all your stones and let you absorb all the needed lipids from the diet. After years of fin your gallbladder had zero bile acids, means it is solid green mass with very little bile.

Also you need to eat good fats, plus vitamin Bs, since b vitamins make NADPH and NADP those are needed for 5 alpha and 5 beta reductases. Also you can add vitamin C , since cholesterol is converted down the line into 5 beta reductases by vitamin C and NADPH which fin impairs.

https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formu...=1524070039&sr=8-1&keywords=bile+acid+factors

https://www.amazon.com/Allergy-Rese...70118&sr=8-2&keywords=nt+factor+energy+lipids

And vitamin B vitamins plus vitamin C



Plus flush the liver over and over again. This is the problem in PFS

Delta 4-3-oxosteroid 5 beta-reductase deficiency: failure of ursodeoxycholic acid treatment and response to chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid.


@mattyb
I'm trying to figure this out, but I am confused, what do you mean by finasteride "puts pressure on cortisol?" Do you mean, on finasteride cortisol is too low (due to fin not converting) so the enzyme 5-beta reductase is reduced to prevent further cortisol break down?
 

RebelWithACause

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Just thinking out loud here w/ the info Helen provided us:

Could it be finasteride causes oversensitive estrogen receptors in some and because of this high serotonin in the brain? And thus cause low breathing and very low metabolism. People have cold hands, etc. Even me.

I am a fast oxidizer but have all symptoms of slow metabolism. Not as bad anymore. But once I eat a bit of fat like nuts, olive oil or other fat source I feel tired as hell. Instantly feels like I have a very low metabolic rate. This is off TEI.

I notice when I was on TEI on zinc + iron, low fat (I did not eat the recommended cashews for a while), and the other minerals my breathing was higher. Even had some days where I felt the alpha DHT feeling.

Now I wake up again with my mouth open like my body cannot get enough oxygen at night.

Chi ate a low carbohydrate (AND LOW FAT) diet and used zinc, iron and other stuff to lower copper levels/block estrogen. Also eating carbohydrates increases CO2 and thus slows the breathing drive further unless you are highly active everyday. A low carb diet also promotes lower estrogen.

R-Andro also lowers estrogen and: Androsterone Lowers Cholesterol and Mimics Thyroid Hormone increases metabolic rate.

Also remember the guy who got fixed from blocking estrogen with letrozole for 6 months. Block estrogen -> lower serotonin in the brain -> increase metabolism -> get rid of the issue (toxic metals, copper, whatever it is, it seems to take a few months to a year to fix it). Maybe it is just the fact that metabolism is recovered and now you feel cured. What that "metabolic" issue is, is hard to say. Could be copper or the estrogen receptor.

Because in this case PFS guys are so slow metabolism their body can't fix shit. So they stay in this state forever since metabolism is way down.

Plus extreme slow metabolism (and high serotonin) in itself gives a lot of the PFS symptoms. Like depression, no emotions, low libido etcetera.

So what are the options if this is true:

- R-Andro cycling to give the body bursts of higher metabolism by blocking estrogen and the effect of the hormone itself on metabolic rate
- Eat a lot of vegetables/potassium to increase metabolic rate (?) cruciferious is a + since it also has DIM which lowers estrogen lightly
- Letrozole, blocking estrogen hard for a few months, or maybe something lighter like Arimidex
- Eating lower carbohydrate to not lower breathing drive further, depends on activity level (no keto - low fat)
- TEI/ARL to get to the root of the problem, I am looking forward to what they will give me next since I think this will make the picture clearer
 
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Helen

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Just thinking out loud here w/ the info Helen provided us:

Could it be finasteride causes oversensitive estrogen receptors in some and because of this high serotonin in the brain? And thus cause low breathing and very low metabolism. People have cold hands, etc. Even me.

I am a fast oxidizer but have all symptoms of slow metabolism. Not as bad anymore. But once I eat a bit of fat like nuts, olive oil or other fat source I feel tired as hell. Instantly feels like I have a very low metabolic rate. This is off TEI.

I notice when I was on TEI on zinc + iron, low fat (I did not eat the recommended cashews for a while), and the other minerals my breathing was higher. Even had some days where I felt the alpha DHT feeling.

Now I wake up again with my mouth open like my body cannot get enough oxygen at night.

Chi ate a low carbohydrate (AND LOW FAT) diet and used zinc, iron and other stuff to lower copper levels/block estrogen. Also eating carbohydrates increases CO2 and thus slows the breathing drive further unless you are highly active everyday. A low carb diet also promotes lower estrogen.

R-Andro also lowers estrogen and: Androsterone Lowers Cholesterol and Mimics Thyroid Hormone increases metabolic rate.

Also remember the guy who got fixed from blocking estrogen with letrozole for 6 months. Block estrogen -> lower serotonin in the brain -> increase metabolism -> get rid of the issue (toxic metals, copper, whatever it is, it seems to take a few months to a year to fix it). Maybe it is just the fact that metabolism is recovered and now you feel cured. What that "metabolic" issue is, is hard to say. Could be copper or the estrogen receptor.

Because in this case PFS guys are so slow metabolism their body can't fix shit. So they stay in this state forever since metabolism is way down.

Plus extreme slow metabolism (and high serotonin) in itself gives a lot of the PFS symptoms. Like depression, no emotions, low libido etcetera.

So what are the options if this is true:

- R-Andro cycling to give the body bursts of higher metabolism by blocking estrogen and the effect of the hormone itself on metabolic rate
- Eat a lot of vegetables/potassium to increase metabolic rate (?) cruciferious is a + since it also has DIM which lowers estrogen lightly
- Letrozole, blocking estrogen hard for a few months, or maybe something lighter like Arimidex
- Eating lower carbohydrate to not lower breathing drive further, depends on activity level (no keto - low fat)
- TEI/ARL to get to the root of the problem, I am looking forward to what they will give me next since I think this will make the picture clearer

I think we discussed this like 100 times already and I mentioned this in so many threads. We have been discussing this with Boris also lately daily.

No one tries anything.

Also estrogen increases CBG which bind cortisol. when there is no free cortisol, cortisol gets broken down by 5AR, so when there is low free cortisol , nothing to convert with 5AR and 5 AR closes.

estrogen also increases SHBG.


We have people who feel good and almost cured on AIs and we have people who feel totally crashed on AI.


You can look at vincentv posts on propeciahelp forum . He has been playing with AI for a while. for years. since he felt better on them.

and he had high cortisol with very low free cortisol.
 
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RebelWithACause

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I think we discussed this like 100 times already and I mentioned this in so many threads. We have been discussing this with Boris also lately daily.

No one tries anything.

Also estrogen increases CBG which bind cortisol. when there is no free cortisol, cortisol gets broken down by 5AR, so when there is low free cortisol , nothing to convert with 5AR and 5 AR closes.

estrogen also increases SHBG.


We have people who feel good and almost cured on AIs and we have people who feel totally crashed on AI.


You can look at vincentv posts on propeciahelp forum . He has been playing with AI for a while. for years. since he felt better on them.

and he had high cortisol with very low free cortisol.
Vincentv was still around in 2017 so I think it did not cure him.
 

RebelWithACause

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yeah he went chelation route
Could also be a copper problem after all. A lot of the copper toxicity symptoms allign with what people experience. Maybe when copper enters the bloodstream you feel like dogshit and thus you get upswings and downswings.

Even in NB they talk about "upswings" and "downswings" that cdsnuts talks about.

First you get an upswing (increase in vitality), you feel better, then you get into a downswing because your body releases copper (or other metals for some people) and you feel like a little bitch again. I have had this plenty of times. I feel better a few days, then bam I feel a bit crap. But in a period of months I get better.

I think if I finish the full course of TEI and I get better and better it will show a clearer picture for at least one "case" of PFS.
 
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Snow1

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Could also be a copper problem after all. A lot of the copper toxicity symptoms allign with what people experience. Maybe when copper enters the bloodstream you feel like dogshit and thus you get upswings and downswings.

Even in NB they talk about "upswings" and "downswings" that cdsnuts talks about.

First you get an upswing (increase in vitality), you feel better, then you get into a downswing because your body releases copper (or other metals for some people) and you feel like a little bitch again. I have had this plenty of times. I feel better a few days, then bam I feel a bit crap. But in a period of months I get better.

I think if I finish the full course of TEI and I get better and better it will show a clearer picture for at least one "case" of PFS.
During my ARL program I’ve had two big copper dumps over the last year and a bit, my practitioner mentioned My last dump was the second highest she has ever seen on a hair test, the detox symptoms whilst dumping copper can be hard work, but hoping the rewards will come once I’ve finished dumping it, some people can continue to dump copper for years. Near infrared saunas + coffee enemas = dumping copper
 
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RebelWithACause

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I remember someone saying they felt better after travelling w airplane. I had the same thing. When I came back from Madrid I telt much better. Lasted around 3-4 days. This was also An upswing where my face looked completely normal. Anyone have An Idea what the mechanism of that is?
 
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BC2018

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On a PFS vacation
Anyone have An Idea what the mechanism of that is?
I have the same thing when I sleep at odd hours like going to bed at 7pm. I think it's just hormones fluctuating and body temp rising, my body is still a liability and not reliable like it was pre-pfs so it doesn't help much getting horny and feeling healthy for a few hours when I know the slighest mood swing or eating some food will pull me out of that and I'll come crashing down in front of a woman. In my case with POIS I'll feel worse than I did before the upswing began and get depression that night.
 

Walker

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I remember someone saying they felt better after travelling w airplane. I had the same thing. When I came back from Madrid I telt much better. Lasted around 3-4 days. This was also An upswing where my face looked completely normal. Anyone have An Idea what the mechanism of that is?
That was me - or at least I was one of those people that experienced it, not the only one. I used to travel 70% of the time for work. I could always notice an upswing during my PFS days right after being on a plane. Not sure what it is.
 

Kjbigman

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That was me - or at least I was one of those people that experienced it, not the only one. I used to travel 70% of the time for work. I could always notice an upswing during my PFS days right after being on a plane. Not sure what it is.
Woah that is crazy the same thing happens for me (still on fin though). I thought maybe it was due to really high cortisol or something, like maybe there is a snapback? Idk, but generally, following feeling well, I think I crash super hard.