FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)

Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#1
Here is a theory.


Finasteride is a progestin like progesterone. IT raises potassium in the cell. By doing this it increases metabolism of people who take it. Sugar metabolism is closed in hairloss people and taking finasteride bypasses the regulation, same as taking progesterone , and same as taking thyroid hormone. This causes oxidative stress. Finasteride by binding NADPH kills glutathione and recycling . This causes faster metabolism but with oxidative stress. When you go off finasterid metabolism goes back down, but now it can not even lift up at all. Since you killed all glutathione enzymes, they simply dont work now. So sugar metabolism does not go up. Same situation as steroid diabetes. Or diabetes that you can get from taking progesterone.

Now you are stuck with very low metabolism and anything that you use to speed it up contantly backfires. Sugar - no good, salt no good, Thyroid= inflammation. Everything that you use to speed makes you feel better with on symptom and makes you super inflammed. To open up the metabolism you need to support glutathione enzymes , glutathione transferase and glutathione peroxidase. This will open up your sugar metabolism and it will metabolize finasteride out of your body. Since it is still in your body.

Also since finasteride kills NADPH and glutathione recylcling , it lowers glutathione levels. glutathione breaks bonds in glycoprotein B. Which is reponsible for virus replication. If there is no glutathione there is a a lot of glycoprotein B and you get mono or EBV. Virus is an outcome of low glutathione.



Finasteride is a progestin which does not convert to cortisol or metabolites like progesterone does. Since it does not convert to metabolites as progesterone it lowers NADPH. This takes down 5 alpha reductase. Also since progestin does not convert into cortisol, it puts pressure on cortisol and this weakly inhibits the enzyme that breaks down cortisol which is 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms while on fin are coming from inhibiting 5 beta reductase enzyme. the higher dosage of Fin , the more you inhibit this enzyme. and the higher cortisol goes.. 5 beta reductase is the enzyme which is responsible for bile acids. This is why progestins stop bile production. Actually progesterone in certain cases could do the same.

So while you are taking finasteride, you lower NADPH and you lower NADP , you stop 5alpha reductase and you stop 5 beta reductase. Most of the symptoms come from 5 beta reductase . And the higher fin dose the more you inhibit this enzyme. This is why if you found the optimal dosage not to inhibit this enzyme you would be only inhibiting 5 alpha reductase and would not have problems while on fin.


Now. After you come off fin. I assume. your NADPH production spikes back up really high. Since fin was blocking it. while you were on it. . This is why you see high DHT in some of the PFS guys. This high NADPH inhibits 5 beta reductase even further. Since 5 alpha reductase works on NADPH, but 5 beta reductase's end product is NADPH. SO when you come off fin, your NADPH production is high , and 5 beta gets inhibited even more. Your bile acids are zero now. your fat solubles are zero, and also your cortisol is high and aldo is high , since 5 beta reductase does not break them down. You are in alkalosis. and your fat digestion is zero.

So once again. When you are on fin , since fin raises metabolism but does not convert to cortisol like progesterone should have. It lowers both 5 alpha and 5 beta reductase.

But when you go off fin, this increases 5 alpha back to normal and beyond , but it totally inhibits 5 beta even more since NADPH decreases 5 beta


This is why andro works( inhibits 5 alpha) , 5 alpha inhibitors work, licorice works( increases cortisol) and this pushed 5 beta higher, dexamethasone , and progesterone. amino acids, zinc finger , RU lowers metabolism and increases cortisol and 5 beta increased . they all decrease need for cortisol and this increases 5 beta reductase.

So PFS is a imbalance between NADP and NADPH after you come off FIN. NADPH is what 5 alpha works on, and NADP is what 5 beta works on. NADPH is also made out of NADP. So this makes 5 beta and 5 alpha 2 enzymes that go opposite of each other. NADP to NADPH ratio. when NADP high 5 beta is higher, when NADPH is high , 5 beta is lower.


We will be trying many things to put 5 beta back online.





This is basically more precise explanation of the receptor theory but from enzymes view.

For those who are still taking fin, you can always adjust dosage so you dont inhibit 5 beta reductase too much , and this way you will be on fin with minimal sides . If you adjust the dosage lower, this will grow even more hair since you wont be experiencing protein wasting hairloss like in hyperthyroidism. Fin is just uncontrollable progesterone. Fin does not convert to cortisol, but causes the rise of metabolism. When metabolism rises progesterone converts to cortisol to make more sugar and aminos. But fin cant convert , and if you take too high of a dose it is like being hyperthyroid. Puts too much pressure on cortisol and closes down 5 beta reductase with bad sides coming from 5 beta reductase

IF you test your 5 beta reductase and make sure it is good, you can stay on fin without sides


For people who went off the fin . @TubZy and I are trying different protocols to fix this situation more precise. But you have many ways to manipulate NADP NADPH ratio, knowing this mechanism that we outlined above

I hope this explains why people feel bad on anything that increases 5 alpha reductase.



Finasteride. binds NADPH. NADPH recycles glutathione. lack of glutathione causes complete closure of sugar metabolism. Since glutathione is needed to get rid of hydrogen peroxide and glutathione is needed in glutathione transferase to get rid of toxins and drugs, including finasteride. So finasteride stops its own metabolism and I would assume can even build up thru the years.



So you need to increase glutathione transferase and also increase NADPH . glutathione transferase has histidine in it. Also it asks for tyrosine serine and cysteine to activate the glutathione. So when your go toxic in finasteride or other drugs you can go low on tyrosine, since tyrosine will be used for glutathione transferase and tyrosine kinase. This causes low dopamine ( sex drive) low thyroid, and lack of bioavailable copper and vitamin C ( emotions) since when the body becomes toxic it goes into alkalosis ( uses hydrogen for redox reactions) , and this does not allow dopamine conversion into adrenaline which is done with copper and ascorbate. ( copper stays biounavailable and you can get many symptoms of its toxicity) So you can try to take tyrosine or Phenylalanine( which is better) with lyposomal glutathione( this will increases glutathione transferase and get rid of build up of fin), b 50 vitamins( not methylated) , vitamin C, eat good fats( butter) and take bile acids. and shilagit , also cysteine selenium histidine. and serine. Also you can take SOD components, zinc copper manganese chromium. this will metabolize finasteride out of your body.

Basically this will allow your sugar metabolism to go back up on line, which will allow your body to use adrenaline, Since if there is no sugar, there is no CO2 production in the cell. If there is no CO2 then body cant breath it out. And it will lower adrenaline. And close the sugar metabolism. And it will use protein for energy, which will have side effects as high ammonia and brain fog.


Finasteride impairs bile flow, and impairs 5 beta reductase.
5 beta reductase makes your bile acids, without bile acids you will have a build up of cholesterol and malabsorption of fats. and mainly phospholipids and you will have bilirubin stones in your gallbladder which completely blocks all your bile flow.

this will cause deficiency of lipids needed for the brain , sex, fat soluble vitamins etc and you will have very thick blood since cholesterol wont be used and wont be disposed off.

This is why I said to do liver flushes all the time. Also you can take bile acids. chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid. 5 beta reductase makes those . These 2 acids will dilute all your stones and let you absorb all the needed lipids from the diet. After years of fin your gallbladder had zero bile acids, means it is solid green mass with very little bile.

Also you need to eat good fats, plus vitamin Bs, since b vitamins make NADPH and NADP those are needed for 5 alpha and 5 beta reductases. Also you can add vitamin C , since cholesterol is converted down the line into 5 beta reductases by vitamin C and NADPH which fin impairs.

https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formu...=1524070039&sr=8-1&keywords=bile+acid+factors

https://www.amazon.com/Allergy-Rese...70118&sr=8-2&keywords=nt+factor+energy+lipids

And vitamin B vitamins plus vitamin C



Plus flush the liver over and over again. This is the problem in PFS

Delta 4-3-oxosteroid 5 beta-reductase deficiency: failure of ursodeoxycholic acid treatment and response to chenodeoxycholic acid plus cholic acid.


@mattyb
 
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freeflow

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Oct 4, 2017
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#4
GUYS, this perfectly explains my situation.

I take R andro and my stools gets perfectly formed and they are the DARKEST ever, indicating a lot of bile. As R andro is DHT it decreases 5 alpha reductase, more NADP is available for me and my digestion is almost perfect!
Then I have the rebound when I stop the R andro, i believe 5 alpha is coming back also while having some 5 beta.
I felt the most clear headed after this first round of R andro which i did not long ago. I was fresh in the morning, motivation up, everything better etc.

Then after 3-4 days passed in this rebound state and I CRASH with YELLOW STOOLS! Bile is gone, 5 beta gone.

I did 14 days of R andro, Im planning to do a longer cycle soon, cant wait it!

(Ive also had some temporary recoveries with other 5ari stuffs but orgasm crashed these)

Till Im waiting for the next cycle Im doing the amino acid- electrolyte protocl with thorne, bee pollen and some herb rotation and exercise.

@Slayo just reported to me that his test confirmed he has low 5 beta reductase
 
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RebelWithACause

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#7
I drank tomato juice a lot for a week and I noticed great improvement in mood and confidence in that week. Doesn't tomato juice lower 5AR activity?

I am taking l-cysteine, copper, magnesium and potassium and had a good day today. Zero anxiety. Confidence OK. Libido OK and had half chubs by just being around girls. The zinc finger protocol has made most change in my mood and anxiety.
 
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freeflow

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#8
I drank tomato juice a lot for a week and I noticed great improvement in mood and confidence in that week. Doesn't tomato juice lower 5AR activity?

I am taking l-cysteine, copper, magnesium and potassium and had a good day today. Zero anxiety. Confidence OK. Libido OK and had half chubs by just being around girls. The zinc finger protocol has made most change in my mood and anxiety. Also DHT itch from time to time which was gone for months. Even on test-e and masteron. First time I felt it.

Would taking copper without magnesium and potassium be a good idea?
Tomato juice lowers 5ar, it was one of the 5aris that made me recover to a quite good level and then orgasm crashed me.
 

RebelWithACause

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#9
Tomato juice lowers 5ar, it was one of the 5aris that made me recover to a quite good level and then orgasm crashed me.
I am going to add it back in.

Yes orgasms can fuck you up. I had a similar experience. Had two wet dreams two nights in a row and it made my mood bad for a few days.
 

joekool

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Oct 4, 2017
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#10
Two things just to add. There’s some evidence that lowering 5ar with something like tomato sauce or, worse, fin... up regulates androgen receptors. Which is why you may feel better. Don’t make a decision on my post just yet because I have to re-find that but there is the theory behind that. It was floated one time that going back on fin helped for the first 10 days. I don’t suggest it but up regulating with tomato juice every other week could, possibly , be a protocol.

An orgasm releases prolactin which kills libido and we may be overly sensitive to it. Just to keep in mind in the discussion of why an orgasm has such an effect on us.
 
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snowball

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Oct 28, 2017
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#11
“Your bile acids are zero now. your fat solubles are zero, and also your cortisol is high and aldo is high , since 5 beta reductase does not break them down. You are in alkalosis. and your fat digestion is zero.”
After coming off finasteride, my cortisol was initially high however after a few years went to low cortisol, low Aldo category with low bile acids but high progesterone. What explains that?
 

joekool

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#12
Also, can everyone post which cysteine & other aminos they're taking... I started the protocol with Histidine, Cysteine and copper/mag/potassium and got the Hershey squirts. Another Leopard print silk underwear ruined... they ain't cheap

@gbolduev in reference to adjusting the dosage of fin... I used .25mg every other day and sometimes every 2nd day... I don't believe the half life advertised is correct and I do believe even the smallest of dosage can drop DHT to extremely low levels for days...with a build up effect...
 
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MNK99

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#13
Plus who knows what the half-lifes of fin's metabolites are, like dihydrofinasteride. Some people took it 2-3 days or even 2 topical doses and had terrible effects. The only reason I used ~1.25mg was impatience, I could have easily waited for topical liposomal fin at a fraction of the dose (still a garbage drug, but I should have at least done that, but past is past).

Mechanism-Based Inhibition of Human Steroid 5α-Reductase by Finasteride:  Enzyme-Catalyzed Formation of NADP−Dihydrofinasteride, a Potent Bisubstrate Analog Inhibitor

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja953069t
 
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Boris

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#15
For clarification, he is talking about this chart (NADP/NADPH) in this thread Hormonal Charts & Pathways

Also, another clarification, this entire thread not a new theory, just explained in more detail in case anyone was wondering.

You can see below where NADPH and NADP are located in the chain:

 
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Boris

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#16
GUYS, this perfectly explains my situation.

I take R andro and my stools gets perfectly formed and they are the DARKEST ever, indicating a lot of bile. As R andro is DHT it decreases 5 alpha reductase, more NADP is available for me and my digestion is almost perfect!
Then I have the rebound when I stop the R andro, i believe 5 alpha is coming back also while having some 5 beta.
I felt the most clear headed after this first round of R andro which i did not long ago. I was fresh in the morning, motivation up, everything better etc.

Then after 3-4 days passed in this rebound state and I CRASH with YELLOW STOOLS! Bile is gone, 5 beta gone.

I did 14 days of R andro, Im planning to do a longer cycle soon, cant wait it!

(Ive also had some temporary recoveries with other 5ari stuffs but orgasm crashed these)

Till Im waiting for the next cycle Im doing the amino acid- electrolyte protocl with thorne, bee pollen and some herb rotation and exercise.

@Slayo just reported to me that his test confirmed he has low 5 beta reductase
Damn! Thanks dude.

@Slayo get in here haha!
 

Boris

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#17
Plus who knows what the half-lifes of fin's metabolites are, like dihydrofinasteride. Some people took it 2-3 days or even 2 topical doses and had terrible effects. The only reason I used ~1.25mg was impatience, I could have easily waited for topical fin at a fraction of the dose (still a garbage drug, but I should have at least done that, but past is past).

Mechanism-Based Inhibition of Human Steroid 5α-Reductase by Finasteride:  Enzyme-Catalyzed Formation of NADP−Dihydrofinasteride, a Potent Bisubstrate Analog Inhibitor

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja953069t
There was a log of a guy who posted that study on some random forum (wasn't PFS related) he said this;


"However, findings and understanding of how Finasteride actually works have changed in recent years, even from the original manufacturer’s understanding.

Published analysis shows that it DOES NOT act as an antagonist as thought but actually ACTS as a mechanism-based inactivator of the 5a Reductase Enzyme. This reaction throws off a bisubstrate analogue in which dihydrofinasteride is covalently bound to NADP+.

Subsequently through competitive activity Finasteride metabolates impact on the AKR1D1 enzyme (5b reductase) and in a dose dependant manner that is higher than the dose dependent value on the 5a Reductase.

So Finasteride blocks 5a synthesis and all the effects are as you say well documented.

Research now shows that in a dose dependent manner it blocks the 5b synthesis. Now this process has significant effects on sexual behaviour and brain activity, not least through 5b progesterone synthesis and it’s metabolates.

Personally I began on 1mg for 2 years and had all the side effects recorded: reduced watery ejaculate, reduced desire, reduced feelings, no dreams, dry eyes, etc (note 5b very important here). These reduced after 13 months, exactly as others see and was shown in tests. Hair grew remarkably, by as much as 30% by year 2, even to a full fringe (little benefit at 6 months, just steady increase to year end then big gain in 2nd year).

So I accepted side effects.

In year 3 Doctor gave me the full 5B report and I dropped to 0.5mg per day.

It’s now Year 6.

I have NO side effects at all and actually gained even more hair since year 2. The biggest changes have been in eyes (dryness eliminated and prescription actually improved from R-2.75 L-3.75 to R-2.25 L-3.50), sexual desire and mood (including regular dreams). Erectile performance and orgasm actually very good, would suggest higher than before start on Fin, driven by +12% Testosterone and +10% Estradiol compared to pre-Fin start (Doctor has done pre and post blood tests and one every 12 months).

I can only speak from.experience.
The article on Finasterides true working methods and impact in 5B Reductase can be found here….then Google the impact of 5B suppression and you will recognise I’m sure the effects…"
 

Rid

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#18
like I was saying the other day, I think it would make sense to try a microdose cycle of whatever crashed you, assuming you are otherwise balanced, like myself. it's risky, as I have said, but this makes logical sense to me. I remember being the horniest I had ever been in my life before my crash, next level horny. that seems so distant now.
 

Goose12

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#20
@gbolduev @TubZy I am actually in the middle of doing a protocol that falls in line with this.

Electrolyte protocol daily and cycle zinc with cofactors EOD.

Run 3 days of RU with progesterone. I assumed the prog helped make sure RU antagonized prog receptors but in reality progesterone inhibits 5 alpha while RU gets 5 beta working again. I just finished my first day of this.

My question is, should I run low dose prog for a while after RU or jump on r andro, or just refeed? @IHateFin and @bruschi11 both have experience with prog and RU
 
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