CASEs of PFS and things to try .

blindsided

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Oct 9, 2017
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#22
I AM suggesting IT could be part mental. So what. This is my experience. I share IT and suggest IT could be.

Remember Chi the guy who actually recovered said the same thing. When he recovered he said IT is like his face looked like he never had PFS. He advised to not look in the mirror while recovering.

On upswings my face is conpletely normal. How thats possible? I dont know.

I bet you not much changed but his neurosteroids kicked in and he sees his face as normal again.

From now on I Will not reply to this BS anymore since this is the same PFS talk they have on PropeciaHelp.
I'll keep this civil. We are on the same team here in the end. I can get you suggesting that it could be partly mental if that has been your experience. Fair enough there. In my experience it has not been mental, so that is what I shared. Good enough.

Yes, I remember the Chi guy well. I communicated with him over on Solve a couple of times. For a long time, I have incorporated some of the things that he had done to recover. And I still continue to. On board there.

I'm the last person on here that would understand how face or other PFS sides can change that quick. From shit to normal. I get it and the same thing happens to me. For me, maybe not for you, it is still a physical thing. For example, PFS somehow caused my hands to look like an 80 year old man at times. Some days they are all wrinkly with lines and just sickly looking. They loose puffiness and size almost to the point where my ring slides right off my finger. But during my upswings they can look completely normal- filled in, no wrinkles, ring fits snug like it should..... Same type of things happen with my face, but more pronounced as it relates to my hands. How this can happen from one day to the next, I have no idea either.

For me I have been running CDs protocol for almost 2 years and incorporated things from others who have recovered (like Chi). I have made many improvements over time and some days I am mostly normal. So I know that I can beat this and PFS can be reversed. I plan on fully recovering. I even stated in my previous post where even though I do not think it is mental, I think it can be reversed. I wasn't dwelling on it and saying it was not curable, but rather saying it was a real thing.

So how from my previous post (and I assume it was from my post since you replied to it) I do not understand how you came to the conclusion that my post was either A) BS or B) comparable to talk at PH. If you see it that way, then you see it that way. Not my intent at all.
 

RebelWithACause

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#23
I'll keep this civil. We are on the same team here in the end. I can get you suggesting that it could be partly mental if that has been your experience. Fair enough there. In my experience it has not been mental, so that is what I shared. Good enough.

Yes, I remember the Chi guy well. I communicated with him over on Solve a couple of times. For a long time, I have incorporated some of the things that he had done to recover. And I still continue to. On board there.

I'm the last person on here that would understand how face or other PFS sides can change that quick. From shit to normal. I get it and the same thing happens to me. For me, maybe not for you, it is still a physical thing. For example, PFS somehow caused my hands to look like an 80 year old man at times. Some days they are all wrinkly with lines and just sickly looking. They loose puffiness and size almost to the point where my ring slides right off my finger. But during my upswings they can look completely normal- filled in, no wrinkles, ring fits snug like it should..... Same type of things happen with my face, but more pronounced as it relates to my hands. How this can happen from one day to the next, I have no idea either.

For me I have been running CDs protocol for almost 2 years and incorporated things from others who have recovered (like Chi). I have made many improvements over time and some days I am mostly normal. So I know that I can beat this and PFS can be reversed. I plan on fully recovering. I even stated in my previous post where even though I do not think it is mental, I think it can be reversed. I wasn't dwelling on it and saying it was not curable, but rather saying it was a real thing.

So how from my previous post (and I assume it was from my post since you replied to it) I do not understand how you came to the conclusion that my post was either A) BS or B) comparable to talk at PH. If you see it that way, then you see it that way. Not my intent at all.
Yea I flipped out a bit. I think we agree.

Anyways lets focus on the trials.
 
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MCurtone

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Apr 7, 2019
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#24
I'll be getting bloods in soon and I already have TEI done. For those who are on a budget and will be getting bloods, ensure you get the following as a MINIMUM:

Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estradiol (E2)
DHT
SHBG
Cortisol
Transcortin (CBG)
ACTH
Progesterone
Aldosterone

Those seem to be the key indicators as to deciphering what type of variant you have. Obviously more tests would be better, like sodium, potassium, full iron panel, dopamine, adrenaline, noradrenaline, glutathione, etc. Lets get as many people as we can with latest TEI and these bloods and start working from there.
 

Enricks

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Jul 20, 2018
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#25
Why GRs dysregulated in the first place? Is it just an assume or is there any mechanism behind it?

I just found this.

Role of the serotoninergic system in the regulation of glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid receptors in the rat hippocampus. - PubMed - NCBI

Role of the serotoninergic system in the regulation of glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid receptors in the rat hippocampus.

Abstract
Effects of 5-HT receptor agonists (8-OH-DPAT, DOI and mCPP) on the binding parameters of corticosteroid receptors in the hippocampus of adult rats were studied. Glucocorticoid (GR) and mineralocorticoid (MR) receptors were examined by an in vitro [3H]corticosterone binding in cytosol, using the selective GR agonist RU 28362 to discriminate between MR and GR. Treatment with 8-OH-DPAT and mCPP given for 7 but not 1 days increased the density of MR. None of the compounds under investigation influenced the density of GR or the affinity of MR and GR in the rat hippocampus. Our results suggest that, in contrast to the postnatal period, the 5-HT1A and/or 5-HT2C, but not 5-HT2A, receptor is mainly involved in the regulation of MR in adult rats.

Dysregulation of diurnal rhythms of serotonin 5-HT2C and corticosteroid receptor gene expression in the hippocampus with food restriction and gluco... - PubMed - NCBI

Do glucocorticoids really increase 5-HT2C levels?

Glucocorticoids, however, downregulate 5-HT2C receptor mRNA in the hippocampus, and it is unclear how increased 5-HT2C receptor sensitivity is achieved in the presence of elevated glucocorticoid levels in depression.
Modulation of serotonin and corticosteroid receptor gene expression in the rat hippocampus with circadian rhythm and stress. - PubMed - NCBI

Modulation of serotonin and corticosteroid receptor gene expression in the rat hippocampus with circadian rhythm and stress.


Abstract

Glucocorticoids and serotonin (5-HT) modulate behaviour and hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis responses. The two systems interact prominently in the hippocampus, where these effects may occur. We have previously shown that hippocampal 5-HT2C receptor mRNA expression is increased by adrenalectomy or central 5-HT lesions. We have now determined expression of corticosteroid and 5-HT receptor subtype genes in the hippocampus across the diurnal cycle, when there are changes both in plasma corticosterone and hippocampal 5-HT levels, as well as the responses of these transcripts to acute and chronic stress, using in situ hybridisation histochemistry. Expression of both glucocorticoid (GR) and mineralocorticoid (MR) receptor mRNAs was significantly higher (131-153%) in the hippocampus at 08.00 h (corticosterone nadir) than at 20.00 h (corticosterone peak). 5-HT2C receptor mRNA expression also showed circadian variation (106-184% higher in CA1-CA3 in the morning). Hippocampal 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptor mRNA expression had no diurnal variation. Chronic (15 day) adjuvant arthritis stress, abolished the circadian corticosterone nadir, maintaining plasma corticosterone around diurnal peak values. Chronic arthritis stress suppressed hippocampal 5-HT2C receptor mRNA expression at 08.00 h to levels comparable to 20.00 h controls. By contrast to chronic stress, 6 h after acute laparotomy stress, plasma corticosterone was elevated above control (20.00 h) and 5-HT2C receptor mRNA expression was increased (CA2). Neither acute nor chronic stress altered MR, GR, 5-HT1A or 5-HT2A receptor mRNA expression in any hippocampal subfield. These results show that hippocampal expression of the 5-HT2C receptor gene, but not other subtypes, is sensitive to a variety of manipulations.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS).
 

5 alpha

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Oct 3, 2017
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#26
@Boris @5 alpha @MCurtone


I decided to outline all the things and possibilities which could be tried one more time. All of this has been already written on this forum many times.


We have 2 cases that we saw.


1) Normal low DHT cases, with highish normal cortisol and progesterone.

2) high normal DHT cases with low cortisol cases.



Lets try to speculate on each case

1) case is when DHT is lower than it was pre PFS. ( I had this case, my DHT was much much lower than before I took fin)

Usually people have highish cortisol and highish progesterone in this case.

I am doing more tests in this case from bloods for people. but usually these people have lowish ACTH, and high normal cortisol. and highish normal progesterone.






a) This tells us that cortisol is not being broken down. and progesterone is also not being broken down.

Cortisol is usually broken down by 11hsd ( the enzyme which licorice inhibits) , also cortisol is broken down by 5 alpha reductase.


SO there is a possibility that if androgen receptor in DHT sensitive tissues got stronger from finasteride. this then lowered 5AR, which lowers cortisol break down and progesterone breakdown into allopregnenolone.

This then closes down 3 beta hsd since progesterone is made with 3 beta hsd, and also higher cortisol effects estrogen and LH.

Possible solution: ACTH injections. Semax. ACTH is the hormone that tells your body to increase cortisol . May be potassium cycles.

ACTH upregulates cortisol Mrna and downregulates AR mrna. when ACTH goes up, your body wants to start catabolism and kill anabolism.

Also @Boris suggested RU cycle along with some androgen like andro which also makes sense here.


b) Another variant in this case is that cortisol receptor got sensitive in the brain, which tells the body to bind all glucocorticoids. and thus they are higher than needed in blood bound to CBG

possible solution: dexamethasone. Ligand-Induced Repression of the Glucocorticoid Receptor Gene Is Mediated by an NCoR1 Repression Complex Formed by Long-Range Chromatin Interactions with Intragenic Glucocorticoid Response Elements. Dexa downregulates GR receptors.

c) and third variant is that cortisol receptor and progesterone got insensitive, from being higher when 5 alpha reductase was lowered when you were on fin., and now basically the body does not want to convert cortisol further by 5 alpha reductase and does not want to convert progesterone by 5AR .

Possible solution , acth injection, potassium, ketoconazole. RU with andro.




and now case 2) When you have higher DHT and low cortisol.


a) upregulated GR receptor causes too much 5AR since body is trying to get rid of cortisol. DHT is higher. Allopregnenolone is very high which totally kills metabolism since allopregnenolone puts calcium into the cell. Allopregnanolone-induced rise in intracellular calcium in embryonic hippocampal neurons parallels their proliferative potential this is why Jack17 going back on dutasteride basically lowered allopregnenolone. And if you read his story he immediately lost weight. and his metabolism went back online I guess since inhibiting 5ar lowered his allopregnenolone levels.

LH cycles, dexamethasone and other glucocorticoids. anavar cycles.

b) upregulated AR receptor which tells the body to bind all DHT by SHBG

possible solutions: r andro cycles, ACTH cycles.

c) insensitive AR.

Possible solutions: Ru58841 cycles, LH cycles.



Also I want to mention insensitive and sensitive GABA receptors

1) to upregulate DHM
2) to downregulate sodium butyrate


So we can discuss all these possibilities

It’s looking like I’m case one.

I can’t prove that my DHT was higher prior to Saw P-PFS but it certainly feels like that’s the case. My labs from over the years show highish cortisol for the most part. I had one low cortisol reading but that was also when my testosterone was flagged low. The other times I had my cortisol checked it was on the higher end of the range with my testosterone mid range. Than there was the one time I had cortisol and ACTH checked when I was on Clomid which came back with flagged high testosterone, cortisol and ACTH lower than my Cortisol.

I think that these results combined with the fact that when I inhibited 11hsd recently with my brief trial of licorice extract and got immediately worse confirms that my cortisol is not being broken down properly. I can’t say that I have seen evidence that my progesterone is not being broken down properly though. The 1-2 times my progesterone was checked it was lowish.

Your point about 3 beta hsd getting closed down in case 1 can be confirmed for me by my low
androstenedione reading in 2014. I never had allopregnenolone checked but my positive response to 5a-DHP suggested that my allopregnenolone was low which may confirm
your point about lowered progesterone breakdown into allopregnenolone in case 1.

Based on everything you said it seems I’m much closer to falling in case 1 then I am case 2. Probably even closer to case 1 variant b involving cortisol receptors and glucocorticoids seeing that it does not seem like I have a problem with breaking down progesterone.

To bad we did not have a cheep way to get labs done. It would be nice if all of us PFS people could get DHT, Cortisol, Progesterone and ACTH tested to try to see how many of us fall in either case 1 or 2
 
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RebelWithACause

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#27
I think I AM case 1 and could try ACTH injecrion (I have a source 4 Synacthen) and/OR potassium loading. But since I have done TEI I feel much better than before I started so probably changed body chemistry. I might get bloodwork after this cycles.
 
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Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#28
@5 alpha if your progesterone is low , you might not be making NAD. progesterone is there to retain potassium. so if yours is low you cant retain potassium

so if your cant retain potassium and cant make enough progesterone, then your progesterone cant be broken down, and this could be the reason why your 5AR is closed


and this could explain why you are doing better on potassium.

I think you need to test all your hormones at once so you have a clear picture.


Dont forget, that RU is progesterone, and when you are low on progesterone, and you take RU. RU acts like progesterone. RU blocks progesterone only if progesteone is high, since RU is a weaker progesterone.

so if you take RU plus potassium, it is the same as taking progesterone plus potassium, which retains potassium


So your problem it seems stems from no ability to make progesterone. This is why when you quit RU, in a while you lose your potassium again, and axis close down.


You need to test your hormones. all axis, like pregnenolone progesterone. IDO TDO enzymes. that make NAD needed for progesterone production


you see that if you have no potassium then you have low insulin.


and if you have low insulin you make very low NADPH , and thus your steroid axis is closed. and 5AR is closed down, and estrogen is closed down.

Estrogen is made with NADPH , DHT is made with NADPH. and it needs 3 NADPH to be made. without potassium there is no insulin. so no NADPH.


So the bottom line, you need to test your electrolytes in blood.


progesterone pregnenolone. all hormones.


potassium , insulin.

and you will see your problem. People are undertested and just wondering around blindly.


Progesterone is made with NAD, and NAD is made in Kynurenine pathway

Progesterone is the hormones which retains potassium in the body. so if you cant make progesterone, you are low on potassium. RU is progesterone, so taking potassium with it in cases when progesterone is low, will retain potassium.


If you have low or insensitive progesterone, then it wont retain potassium. without potassium , no NADPH. and your breakdown of cortisol and progesterone will be killed. thus no 5AR.



Another variant is that your progesterone got too sensitive. In this case, it will also close down 3 beta hsd.

And potassium could downregulate it.
 
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Ocguy

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#29
Yes I also have that. But I had a few days where I had a big upswing and my face looked normal and healthy. So how is that possible? OR AM I insane?

I had Many times people comment on my face and how terrible I looked and a week later they say the opposite. Im not joking.

I believen you dude but I think IT is partly psychological. I Will know for sure once I AM completely out of pfs.

Maybe I AM just insane hahaha.
It's not psychological if everybody is commenting on your face.. makes zero sense.. my before / after pics are insane btw. The bounce back you're talking about some days has more to do with hydration ..

but there's no denying some have had massive fat loss and collagen breakdown
 

RebelWithACause

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#30
It's not psychological if everybody is commenting on your face.. makes zero sense.. my before / after pics are insane btw. The bounce back you're talking about some days has more to do with hydration ..

but there's no denying some have had massive fat loss and collagen breakdown
You want to start this discussion again?

Let's Just not talk about IT anymore.

I stand by that a big part is psychological.

I had people say I looked unhealthy one week before they said the opposite that I looked healthy. And IT correlated how I felt (downswing VS upswing).

After I came back from Madrid had a huge upswing and my face had zero signs of being sunken in. While on bad days IT is like I AM a junkie. Like I have no facial fat.

I think the psychologal part is YUGE but ppl are too subjective. They believe everything their Brain shows them.

Eventho your brain is fucked lacking neurosteroids

If that makes you upset then write IT in your diary. This thread is focussen again on potential cures.
 

Enricks

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Jul 20, 2018
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#31
I mean, 2CRs could be what keeps GR receptors upregulated in the brain. Anyone has a better idea? Metabolic syndrome, hyperphagia(excessive appetite), alergic reaction to foods, cognitive deteroiration and adrenal problems... Do we talking about the same diseases? Do I really have pssd or something different?
 

Ocguy

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#32
You want to start this discussion again?

Let's Just not talk about IT anymore.

I stand by that a big part is psychological.

I had people say I looked unhealthy one week before they said the opposite that I looked healthy. And IT correlated how I felt (downswing VS upswing).

After I came back from Madrid had a huge upswing and my face had zero signs of being sunken in. While on bad days IT is like I AM a junkie. Like I have no facial fat.

I think the psychologal part is YUGE but ppl are too subjective. They believe everything their Brain shows them.

Eventho your brain is fucked lacking neurosteroids

If that makes you upset then write IT in your diary. This thread is focussen again on potential cures.
I agree with your previous comment that you're insane.. I didn't see page two of this thread before I commented btw.. so fucking relax..
and it is a hydration issue, or a dumping phase when your skin is sagging and then bounces back the next day. I know this because my nails look like I've been overhauling an engine when it happens to me.. totally black underneath for no apparent reason.. next day or two nails are clean again and face bounces back

but there is an overall subcutaneous fat loss in some cases as well.. youre thinking with an either or mentality

If you want to focus on cures but yet claim its psychological then go see a shrink
 
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bruschi11

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#33
I agree with your previous comment that you're insane.. I didn't see page two of this thread before I commented btw.. so fucking relax..
and it is a hydration issue, or a dumping phase when your skin is sagging and then bounces back the next day. I know this because my nails look like I've been overhauling an engine when it happens to me.. totally black underneath for no apparent reason.. next day or two nails are clean again and face bounces back

but there is an overall subcutaneous fat loss in some cases as well.. youre thinking with an either or mentality

If you want to focus on cures but yet claim its psychological then go see a shrink
ya he’s so far off here.

Re: people saying you look good vs. bad or whatever. People just say whatever to make you feel good about yourself. People don’t check you out enough to tell the difference. If I tell my friends my cheek bones shrunk they’d consider me nuts.

Pfs certainly changes physical traits beyond mental/sexual. They body changes unfortunately. Fortunately it is entirely fixable and I’ve been living proof of this.
 

RebelWithACause

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#34
I agree with your previous comment that you're insane.. I didn't see page two of this thread before I commented btw.. so fucking relax..
and it is a hydration issue, or a dumping phase when your skin is sagging and then bounces back the next day. I know this because my nails look like I've been overhauling an engine when it happens to me.. totally black underneath for no apparent reason.. next day or two nails are clean again and face bounces back

but there is an overall subcutaneous fat loss in some cases as well.. youre thinking with an either or mentality

If you want to focus on cures but yet claim its psychological then go see a shrink
I say from my exp a big part of IT is psychological. Im not talking absolutes. Ppl who replied started talking in absolutes

I Just know how low mood can influence the way you see the World. And pfs influences mood a lot. People go up and down all the time. At least a lot of guys I talked to

And from my experience on a bad day I look terrible. But objectively if you take away my brains filter there is probably not much different on a day to day basis. IT is the brain that filters IT in a certain way.

If you believe you are always 100% right in your perception of the World how you perceive things then I cannot help you

That is Just a hypothesis.

But people go crazy when you say that BC they believe 100% in what their brain tells Them. I dont BC I Saw massive changes in a span of days. Its impossible for the face to change that fast.

Which showed me that a big part of IT is psychological.
And remember the brain is An organ affected by lack of neurosteroids and maybe metals. So it is also physical in the organ. The brain affects what you see, think etc.

YMMV. This is my opinion.

I want to not discuss it anymore so we disagree that is fine
 
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MNK99

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#36
It's not psychological if everybody is commenting on your face.. makes zero sense.. my before / after pics are insane btw. The bounce back you're talking about some days has more to do with hydration ..

but there's no denying some have had massive fat loss and collagen breakdown
FOUGHT with my brother (a FACE surgeon no less...), about this very thing. He was pissed off about other things, I'm usually dangerously pissed off, and we were flying back from our cousin's funeral, so most of family had been sad and or not in a great place. (i think half our family just deals with things with rage but i digress).

ALSO he and another cosmetic surgeon were talking shit during crash in 2017, and fucking saying im young for age and am aging well 2018 etc. BUT yeah, I am certain I had 7 face affects and 5.5-6 are gone and have been gone. IT is not just psychological. I fucking tracked things like a psychopath. BUT mostly ignored them***.
Maybe even 7 are gone but for sure 6 are gone daily. Sometimes I see 1, I can't even remember all 7.

I can tell if ppl are on fin etc by face often, HOWEVER, I don't dwell on it. I have been with more women this year than 2016, 2017 (obviously ... was dying etcetera), 2018, 2015, combined. BUT*** that's part of why I said 95 99% cured a long time. Often I feel completely fixed but add slight change that I see sometimes, plus a couple other things (a major scar not really pfs, eyebrow thinning, eye lash thinning - not pfs (stims, aging, probably lamotrigine also), makes me want to continue tei.

The thing is I have other shyt to focus on, such at treating psych things (safely), so my career, wrk etc doesn't get completely fucked up, and so life is like 1000x easier.

WOMEN have never commented in a bad way, but it's not natural aging, that area had ZERO issue like that before (fin face changes). ALSO, if i tried talking to or meeting women back then in feb or march or june 2017 or december 2017(no chance, i was sick), my face , and reception frm women and other motherfuckers would be DIFFERENT than what it was 1mo or 2 weeks pre fin or 5 y or 10y before or fucking now.

Hydration definitely is HUGE for skin. BUT, it does not change BONES nor COLLAGEN and FAT DISTRIBUTION. LOL, I lost like 150lb, face was fucking great.

LOSING weight, adding muscle -- face change better. i mean MAJOR fat loss, MAJOR recomposition and bodyfat redistribution. 2mo 4mo on a drug ---> bigger facial change, and unlike 20 yrs straight of hardwork, it was not beneficial/ good change. I'm over that tho, ill find a way, and im only out for blood money now anyways. that's my main focus.

(to an extent... if you have 0 fat 0 muscle, if i lost 20 more lb, prolly look like im on crack but ya). now i just want the world to cry, ive been doing an awesome job in that respect. starting a podcast/blog, called 'Sad Fatties Swipe Left'.

NOTE: Obviously, while ill I obsessed, and looked online and later, esp w fasting I ignored the mirror most of last year, at least 5mo. Then a bit here and there 6-7mo, august when skinnier didnt ignore it, vain again, but still avoid as needed because let's not go completely crazy.
 
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Ocguy

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#37
I say from my exp a big part of IT is psychological. Im not talking absolutes. Ppl who replied started talking in absolutes

I never said I was insane. Where did you read that? In your imaginary World?

I Just know how low mood can influence the way you see the World. And pfs influences mood a lot. People go up and down all the time. At least a lot of guys I talked to

And from my experience on a bad day I look terrible. But objectively if you take away my brains filter there is probably not much different on a day to day basis. IT is the brain that filters IT in a certain way.

If you believe you are always 100% right in your perception of the World how you perceive things then I cannot help you

That is Just a hypothesis.

But people go crazy when you say that BC they believe 100% in what their brain tells Them. I dont BC I Saw massive changes in a span of days. Its impossible for the face to change that fast.

Which showed me that a big part of IT is psychological.
And remember the brain is An organ affected by lack of neurosteroids and maybe metals.

YMMV. This is my opinion.

I want to not discuss it anymore so we disagree that is fine
I know what u mean about perception.. but maybe when u get older it's easier to see there's a definitive difference some days.. I think that's with most people , but its definitely magnified with pfs..

Again, I really believe it's hydration , (impaired h20/electrolyte assimilation) and/or dumping when the changes are quick from day to day. Imho
 

RebelWithACause

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#38
I know what u mean about perception.. but maybe when u get older it's easier to see there's a definitive difference some days.. I think that's with most people , but its definitely magnified with pfs..

Again, I really believe it's hydration , (impaired h20/electrolyte assimilation) and/or dumping when the changes are quick from day to day. Imho
Well maybe its Both... I dont mean disrespect to you and to ppl who have 100% physical issues. But i think its good to keep in mind part of IT OR 100% of IT (depends on the person) could be psychogical.

Even Chi mentioned that his face went back to normal. Like he never had PFS. I believen part of that is probably psycholical. Perception changed, he felt better. And maybe partly je recovered physicslly as well. Im just speculating w what I experienced until now

Now we continue w the thread...
 
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5 alpha

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#39
It's not psychological if everybody is commenting on your face.. makes zero sense.. my before / after pics are insane btw. The bounce back you're talking about some days has more to do with hydration ..

but there's no denying some have had massive fat loss and collagen breakdown
I think it’s the context in which the term psychological is being used here that’s creating the confusion.

Everyone would agree that if other people look at before and after pictures and say hey I can see the difference that this means physical changes have occurred. Or if someone who has known you your whole life tells you that they can see a difference. Obviously both of these scenarios confirm physical changes have occurred.

But does this mean that it’s impossible for a psychological condition to cause these physical changes? Not necessarily. Look at people with severe mental illness. Do they physical look normal ? A lot of the times no they don’t. Brain and body connected.

But if we are thinking about psychological in terms of if we are imagining the physical changes obviously this is not the case if it’s being confirmed by other people who have the info needed to be able to tell.

Another point worth mentioning. Justquitdut good example. I followed his threads over on PH closely so I’m always mentioning him. When he was trying all the different ways to try to get hormone replacement to work he would report a 2-3 day increase in muscle mass followed by losing it for 2-3 days. This tells us that PFS can quickly alter your appearance as you go back and force from responding to hormones to not responding.

This point can explain the shrunken face reversing and going back to being shrunken. Hormones change our appearance. You know the whole puberty thing ... it’s just that puberty occurs over a length of time. PFS altering the way we respond to hormones occurs very fast.

So in my mind I distinguish the term psychological as being a psychological condition causing physical changes VS a psychological condition resulting in imagining physical changes. I think both are possible with PFS and what probable happens in some of us we end up suffering from a combination of both meanings of the term psychological.

I mean think about it we stop responding to hormones and suffer from physical changes we are not imagining. You are now going to feel like shit and focus on it all the time. This could result in you imagining the changes as well. To make things even more confusing some of us could probable be actually seeing the reversal of these changes over and over again. JQD posted pictures that proved he looked like a skinny fit guy one day and within a short period of time looked like he lifts weights. Normally this change does not happen in 2-3 days unless the change in appearance involves hormones.
 
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MCurtone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2019
159
144
43
Canada
#40
This is honestly silly and getting ridiculous. You're both right okay. Just as cortisol or water retention can bloat you up and change you physically overnight, your mental attitude can also affect how you perceive yourself and how others perceive you. Stop arguing, it's actually getting autistic. You are both right. PFS absolutely can cause physical changes. Both of which affect you physically and perceived appearance/confidence. Both can happen overnight and change day to day, based on your emotions and biochemistry. You are both right. Stop acting like children. We're here to cure people, not see who has the most autism.

There are also long-term changes to physical traits and mental perceptions in PFS as well for some people.
 
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