CASEs of PFS and things to try .

Helen

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Oct 5, 2017
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#1
@Boris @5 alpha @MCurtone


I decided to outline all the things and possibilities which could be tried one more time. All of this has been already written on this forum many times.


We have 2 cases that we saw.


1) Normal low DHT cases, with highish normal cortisol and progesterone.

2) high normal DHT cases with low cortisol cases.



Lets try to speculate on each case

1) case is when DHT is lower than it was pre PFS. ( I had this case, my DHT was much much lower than before I took fin)

Usually people have highish cortisol and highish progesterone in this case.

I am doing more tests in this case from bloods for people. but usually these people have lowish ACTH, and high normal cortisol. and highish normal progesterone.






a) This tells us that cortisol is not being broken down. and progesterone is also not being broken down.

Cortisol is usually broken down by 11hsd ( the enzyme which licorice inhibits) , also cortisol is broken down by 5 alpha reductase.


SO there is a possibility that if androgen receptor in DHT sensitive tissues got stronger from finasteride. this then lowered 5AR, which lowers cortisol break down and progesterone breakdown into allopregnenolone.

This then closes down 3 beta hsd since progesterone is made with 3 beta hsd, and also higher cortisol effects estrogen and LH.

Possible solution: ACTH injections. Semax. ACTH is the hormone that tells your body to increase cortisol . May be potassium cycles.

ACTH upregulates cortisol Mrna and downregulates AR mrna. when ACTH goes up, your body wants to start catabolism and kill anabolism.

Also @Boris suggested RU cycle along with some androgen like andro which also makes sense here.


b) Another variant in this case is that cortisol receptor got sensitive in the brain, which tells the body to bind all glucocorticoids. and thus they are higher than needed in blood bound to CBG

possible solution: dexamethasone. Ligand-Induced Repression of the Glucocorticoid Receptor Gene Is Mediated by an NCoR1 Repression Complex Formed by Long-Range Chromatin Interactions with Intragenic Glucocorticoid Response Elements. Dexa downregulates GR receptors.

c) and third variant is that cortisol receptor and progesterone got insensitive, from being higher when 5 alpha reductase was lowered when you were on fin., and now basically the body does not want to convert cortisol further by 5 alpha reductase and does not want to convert progesterone by 5AR .

Possible solution , acth injection, potassium, ketoconazole. RU with andro.




and now case 2) When you have higher DHT and low cortisol.


a) upregulated GR receptor causes too much 5AR since body is trying to get rid of cortisol. DHT is higher. Allopregnenolone is very high which totally kills metabolism since allopregnenolone puts calcium into the cell. Allopregnanolone-induced rise in intracellular calcium in embryonic hippocampal neurons parallels their proliferative potential this is why Jack17 going back on dutasteride basically lowered allopregnenolone. And if you read his story he immediately lost weight. and his metabolism went back online I guess since inhibiting 5ar lowered his allopregnenolone levels.

LH cycles, dexamethasone and other glucocorticoids. anavar cycles.

b) upregulated AR receptor which tells the body to bind all DHT by SHBG

possible solutions: r andro cycles, ACTH cycles.

c) insensitive AR.

Possible solutions: Ru58841 cycles, LH cycles.



Also I want to mention insensitive and sensitive GABA receptors

1) to upregulate DHM
2) to downregulate sodium butyrate


So we can discuss all these possibilities
 
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hairsuit

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Mar 26, 2018
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#2
@Boris @5 alpha @MCurtone


I decided to outline all the things and possibilities which could be tried one more time. All of this has been already written on this forum many times.


We have 2 cases that we saw.


1) Normal low DHT cases, with highish normal cortisol and progesterone.

2) high normal DHT cases with low cortisol cases.



Lets try to speculate on each case

1) case is when DHT is lower than it was pre PFS. ( I had this case, my DHT was much much lower than before I took fin)

Usually people have highish cortisol and highish progesterone in this case.

I am doing more tests in this case from bloods for people. but usually these people have lowish ACTH, and high normal cortisol. and highish normal progesterone.






a) This tells us that cortisol is not being broken down. and progesterone is also not being broken down. or may be cortisol is too sensitive.


Cortisol is usually broken down by 11hsd ( the enzyme which licorice inhibits) , also cortisol is broken down by 5 alpha reductase.


SO there is a possibility that if androgen receptor in DHT sensitive tissues got stronger from finasteride. this then lowered 5AR, which lowers cortisol break down and progesterone breakdown into allopregnenolone.

This then closes down 3 beta hsd since progesterone is made with 3 beta hsd, and also higher cortisol effects estrogen and LH.

Possible solution: ACTH injections. Semax. ACTH is the hormone that tells your body to increase cortisol . May be potassium cycles.

ACTH upregulates cortisol Mrna and downregulates AR mrna. when ACTH goes up, your body wants to start catabolism and kill anabolism.


b) Another variant in this case is that cortisol receptor got sensitive in the brain, which tells the body to bind all glucocorticoids. and thus they are higher than needed in blood bound to CBG

possible solution: dexamethasone. Ligand-Induced Repression of the Glucocorticoid Receptor Gene Is Mediated by an NCoR1 Repression Complex Formed by Long-Range Chromatin Interactions with Intragenic Glucocorticoid Response Elements. Dexa downregulates GR receptors.

c) and third variant is that cortisol receptor got insensitive, from being higher when 5 alpha reductase was increased, and now basically the body does not want to convert cortisol further by 5 alpha reductase . But I would assume in this case, ACTH would be on the higher side. Still had to mention this.

Possible solution , acth injection, potassium, ketoconazole.




and now case 2) When you have higher DHT and low cortisol.


a) upregulated GR receptor causes too much 5AR since body is trying to get rid of cortisol. DHT is higher. Allopregnenolone is very high which totally kills metabolism since allopregnenolone puts calcium into the cell. Allopregnanolone-induced rise in intracellular calcium in embryonic hippocampal neurons parallels their proliferative potential this is why Jack17 going back on dutasteride basically lowered allopregnenolone. And if you read his story he immediately lost weight. and his metabolism went back online I guess since inhibiting 5ar lowered his allopregnenolone levels.

LH cycles, dexamethasone and other glucocorticoids. anavar cycles.

b) upregulated AR receptor which tells the body to bind all DHT by SHBG

possible solutions: r andro cycles, ACTH cycles.

c) insensitive AR.

Possible solutions: Ru58841 cycles, LH cycles.



Also I want to mention insensitive and sensitive GABA receptors

1) to upregulate DHM
2) to downregulate sodium butyrate


So we can discuss all these possibilities
Thank for this @Helen just had bloods done this past week. My numbers are not very cut and dry. I will have to take another look at things. My DHT was 30 and on the lower end of things, As expected. We did a saliva test for the cortisol, and he said that over all it was not that high. Fairly normal and what he would expect given the stressors in my life/career. In those cases where you fall in between the cracks, what should people go after. I tried micro dosing fin a while ago. Didn't help or hurt really. On the other side, I have used Keto shampoo for while in conjunction with everything else. He did say my LH was lower. Around 3.5 I think? He wanted to give me clomid to up my own production of test. Again, as we’ve seen, I do t think that’s the issue.
 

RebelWithACause

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Thank for this @Helen just had bloods done this past week. My numbers are not very cut and dry. I will have to take another look at things. My DHT was 30 and on the lower end of things, As expected. We did a saliva test for the cortisol, and he said that over all it was not that high. Fairly normal and what he would expect given the stressors in my life/career. In those cases where you fall in between the cracks, what should people go after. I tried micro dosing fin a while ago. Didn't help or hurt really. On the other side, I have used Keto shampoo for while in conjunction with everything else. He did say my LH was lower. Around 3.5 I think? He wanted to give me clomid to up my own production of test. Again, as we’ve seen, I do t think that’s the issue.
Low DHT/high ish cortisol can try a Synacthen (ACTH) injection OR the nosespray. It is for two possibilities. Could be worth a shot. OR do something like Troy who did the Potassium. Potassium maybe safer??
 

MCurtone

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Apr 7, 2019
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#5
@Helen Proud of you for good formatting <3 much more clear to understand, very helpful bud))

This thread will be very important moving forward, because I think everything here is correct and everything else branches out from here.

Everyone needs bloods of the following, others are still important but these are key indicators:

Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
DHT
Estradiol (E2)
SHBG
Progesterone
Cortisol
Transcortin (CBG)
ACTH
Aldosterone
Sodium (Serum & Cell)
Potassium (Serum & Cell)
Calcium (Serum & Cell)

No one should randomly start treating themselves until they do TEI & get bloods. It's the best way to see what route works for you. Also, if you really want to contribute, follow that rule and share your results so we can gather more samples and data. It will help conclude what routes work for what types of PFS.
 

RebelWithACause

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#6
What would explain loss of the facial fat, massive sunken cheeks? Is this cortisol related?
I think cortisol probably. Could also be shut off estrogen. When I crashed my estrogen my face became extremelt sunken in. Before that IT was the opposite holding water.

Now my face is still pretty sunken but on upswings my face looks normal again. I think IT is partly mental/delusion. There is no way the face van change within 1 Day. But IT literally looks like I never had PFS on those upswing days.

And sinde neurosteroids are involved I would not be suprised if IT affects literally everything. Even how you perceive reality.
 

Ingeno

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#7
I think cortisol probably. Could also be shut off estrogen. When I crashed my estrogen my face became extremelt sunken in. Before that IT was the opposite holding water.

Now my face is still pretty sunken but on upswings my face looks normal again. I think IT is partly mental/delusion. There is no way the face van change within 1 Day. But IT literally looks like I never had PFS on those upswing days.

And sinde neurosteroids are involved I would not be suprised if IT affects literally everything. Even how you perceive reality.
My face got gradully worse over the years till a point right now where everyone is commenting on my face that I need to eat more or if I am addicted to some drugs. This is 100% not delusional. I compared pictures from pre-fin and it is a huge difference. I am avoiding mirrors daily to prevent looking at my sunken face, it looks really unhealthy. Pre-fin I had full healthy cheeks and now you only see the sunken skin and skeletal parts of my skull.
 

RebelWithACause

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My face got gradully worse over the years till a point right now where everyone is commenting on my face that I need to eat more or if I am addicted to some drugs. This is 100% not delusional. I compared pictures from pre-fin and it is a huge difference. I am avoiding mirrors daily to prevent looking at my sunken face, it looks really unhealthy. Pre-fin I had full healthy cheeks and now you only see the sunken skin and skeletal parts of my skull.
Yes I also have that. But I had a few days where I had a big upswing and my face looked normal and healthy. So how is that possible?

I had Many times people comment on my face and how terrible I looked and a week later they say the opposite. Im not joking.

I believen you dude but I think IT is partly psychological. I Will know for sure once I AM completely out of pfs.
 
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Ingeno

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#9
Yes I also have that. But I had a few days where I had a big upswing and my face looked normal and healthy. So how is that possible? OR AM I insane?

I had Many times people comment on my face and how terrible I looked and a week later they say the opposite. Im not joking.

I believen you dude but I think IT is partly psychological. I Will know for sure once I AM completely out of pfs.

Maybe I AM just insane hahaha.
I haven't had a single good day so far, only downwards. Anyway for me it is physical, my pictures show it clearly. Could also be bone loss, I kept losing weight while I gained muscle mass and same bodyfat.
 

RebelWithACause

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#10
I haven't had a single good day so far, only downwards. Anyway for me it is physical, my pictures show it clearly. Could also be bone loss, I kept losing weight while I gained muscle mass and same bodyfat.
U have no mentale sides??
 

hairsuit

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#12
I have many mental sides, just saying that the sunken face is physical for me and not something I am imagining.
How old are you? In the last two years I’ve gone through the same thinning of the face, but there is also the reality that I am 40. The older we get, the fat and collagen production thins out and if you’re a leaner guy, your face will as well. That’s where the heavier guys have an advantage as they age. I have never stored weight in my face.
 

blindsided

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#13
No offense, but why do people, even some that have PFS, not get the fact that Fin causes these physical side effects? This is not mental and not due to aging. Dude has legitimate physical changes caused by Fin period. Physical changes caused by Fin vs aging are totally different. Pretty soon we'll hear that sexual symptoms are not caused by Fin/PFS, but just a normal result of aging. Oh wait, Merck says that already.

I personally believe that these physical changes can be reversed somehow (different ways for different people perhaps), but to suggest in some way that they aren't real, especially in this forum, seems crazy.
 

hairsuit

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#14
No offense, but why do people, even some that have PFS, not get the fact that Fin causes these physical side effects? This is not mental and not due to aging. Dude has legitimate physical changes caused by Fin period. Physical changes caused by Fin vs aging are totally different. Pretty soon we'll hear that sexual symptoms are not caused by Fin/PFS, but just a normal result of aging. Oh wait, Merck says that already.

I personally believe that these physical changes can be reversed somehow (different ways for different people perhaps), but to suggest in some way that they aren't real, especially in this forum, seems crazy.
No one is saying it didn’t cause it. But there are also people who are experiencing thinning of their face due to aging etc at the same time. That’s why I asked his age. It is common in everyone to lose volume in the face late thirties into fourties and beyond. That is not necessarily Finasteride
 

blindsided

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#15
No one is saying it didn’t cause it. But there are also people who are experiencing thinning of their face due to aging etc at the same time. That’s why I asked his age. It is common in everyone to lose volume in the face late thirties into fourties and beyond. That is not necessarily Finasteride
Not really relevant to the post, but I am around the same age as you. I understand what you are saying, but there is a very distinct difference between what a person's face looks like as it relates to natural aging (thinning) compared to what Fin does where it can destroy a face causing it to thin/sink with dark eye circles leaving people wondering if you are a drug addict. It's just two totally different things.

I mean no offense and won't reply to this further, but just felt passionate about this and compelled me to post.
 
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RebelWithACause

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#16
No offense, but why do people, even some that have PFS, not get the fact that Fin causes these physical side effects? This is not mental and not due to aging. Dude has legitimate physical changes caused by Fin period. Physical changes caused by Fin vs aging are totally different. Pretty soon we'll hear that sexual symptoms are not caused by Fin/PFS, but just a normal result of aging. Oh wait, Merck says that already.

I personally believe that these physical changes can be reversed somehow (different ways for different people perhaps), but to suggest in some way that they aren't real, especially in this forum, seems crazy.
I AM suggesting IT could be part mental. So what. This is my experience. I share IT and suggest IT could be.

Remember Chi the guy who actually recovered said the same thing. When he recovered he said IT is like his face looked like he never had PFS. He advised to not look in the mirror while recovering.

On upswings my face is conpletely normal. How thats possible? I dont know.

I bet you not much changed but his neurosteroids kicked in and he sees his face as normal again.

From now on I Will not reply to this BS anymore since this is the same PFS talk they have on PropeciaHelp.
 

Ingeno

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#18
How old are you? In the last two years I’ve gone through the same thinning of the face, but there is also the reality that I am 40. The older we get, the fat and collagen production thins out and if you’re a leaner guy, your face will as well. That’s where the heavier guys have an advantage as they age. I have never stored weight in my face.
I'm 28 and this has been going on for the last few years, gradually becoming worse. If it was mental then other people wouldn't comment on it. It is shocking for my age and that is the reason people are commenting on it. Even people who see me daily for years are commenting on it, while for them it shouldn't be as noticable because the change would be so gradually. Also will say this one more time, comparing current pictures with pre-FIN is a world of difference, you can now see my bone structure sticking out and there is almost no fat on my cheeks while staying on the same or even higher bodyfat. Been on TEI for a year and there is zero positive change in the facial department, and I think the face even became worse over the last year.
 
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Bankai900

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#19
I AM suggesting IT could be part mental. So what. This is my experience. I share IT and suggest IT could be.

Remember Chi the guy who actually recovered said the same thing. When he recovered he said IT is like his face looked like he never had PFS. He advised to not look in the mirror while recovering.

On upswings my face is conpletely normal. How thats possible? I dont know.

I bet you not much changed but his neurosteroids kicked in and he sees his face as normal again.

From now on I Will not reply to this BS anymore since this is the same PFS talk they have on PropeciaHelp.
I already deleted my last comment cuz I didn't want to join this kindergarten, but

"This BS" :D XDD, you're exactly what's happening on PPH, undermining peoples struggles

I don't even understand why you don't go around and tell people brainfog, tiredness, forgetfulness/memory issues, headaches, no emotions, insomnia, low libido, bad errections/penile sensitivity aren't just "mental" aswell.

I had every single mental side effect imagineable, and maybe that's why I feel for those people experiencing them longer. But I'm not here sayin, bru it's all gone for me WHY ISN'T IT FOR YOU ON SOM DAYS? U just gotta IMAGINE IT'S GONERINO m8. And maybe my dick actually wasn't numb and nonreactive man, I just thought it was. OH SHITE y didn't any1 tell me
Seriously wtf am I reading here the last 2 days


edit: and the only thing that's "BS" is the spamming of this thread with accusations instead of brainstorming to fix the issues
 
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RebelWithACause

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#20
I already deleted my last comment cuz I didn't want to join this kindergarten, but

"This BS" :D XDD, you're exactly what's happening on PPH, undermining peoples struggles

I don't even understand why you don't go around and tell people brainfog, tiredness, forgetfulness/memory issues, headaches, no emotions, insomnia, low libido, bad errections/penile sensitivity aren't just "mental" aswell.

I had every single mental side effect imagineable, and maybe that's why I feel for those people experiencing them longer. But I'm not here sayin, bru it's all gone for me WHY ISN'T IT FOR YOU ON SOM DAYS? U just gotta IMAGINE IT'S GONERINO m8. And maybe my dick actually wasn't numb and nonreactive man, I just thought it was. OH SHITE y didn't any1 tell me
Seriously wtf am I reading here the last 2 days


edit: and the only thing that's "BS" is the spamming of this thread with accusations instead of brainstorming to fix the issues
I'm suggesting it could be.

I heard this stuff a thousand times and I from MY EXPERIENCE (which is not everybody) it is mental. Like I said Chi experienced the same. I do think PFS influences the face obviously. But I think a big part of it is also mental.

When I feel like shit I look in the mirror and am shocked about what I see. I see an ugly weak fragile being, sunken in face, etc. When I have an upswing I see myself and think holy shit I look good. I observe my face as normal. YMMV.

READ WHAT I WROTE.

think cortisol probably. Could also be shut off estrogen. When I crashed my estrogen my face became extremelt sunken in. Before that IT was the opposite holding water.

Now my face is still pretty sunken but on upswings my face looks normal again. I think IT is partly mental/delusion. There is no way the face van change within 1 Day. But IT literally looks like I never had PFS on those upswing days.

And sinde neurosteroids are involved I would not be suprised if IT affects literally everything. Even how you perceive reality.
You read: "I think". I'm not saying it is 100% truth. I am SUGGESTING something. If you don't understand that then I don't know how to explain it.

Just trying to help some guys oversee the situation. B/c they keep posting "muh face is sunken in" and are worried about it.

>>>>I THINK<<<<, a part of why you look like shit is probably b/c you feel like shit and you look in the mirror.

That you want to be a victim and talk about symptoms all day is not my problem. I have moved on from that months ago since it is useless. And I have read multiple recoveries who experienced the same - their face looked normal after recovery. With maybe some wrinkles here and there form aging.

Which is why I suggest not obsessing about it and focus on the recovery.

That is a solution to a problem and I got that solution from people who actually 100% recovered.

Which PH never gives. They just want to talk about it and feel bad all the time. Why do you think people leave Propeciahelp? It's a cesspool of that exactly.

So before you comment w/ your insufferable attitude you read what I wrote OK?