Bone loss PFS

Helen

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oct 5, 2017
6,288
6,069
113
#41
Boron is also needed for bones, since it looks like boron is involved in the conversion of vitamin D into its active form. And lets say if you go into some kind of alkalosis and then get out of it. then all of a sudden you will be very low on calcium from food. And boron is needed to convert vitamin D to active form. And boron stops parathyroids from secreting PTH.

This is why some people cant tolerate magnesium. since the minute you take magnesium , body asks for the calcium. And if there is little boron, then the body will start taking this calcium from the bones.
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#42
How old are these people? And could you describe these "line markers" in more detail? My wrists, hips, hands, feet, and face have all lost mass, but I don't see any lines.
They are in the mid twenties yrs of age but had the lines since before I met them.

The line markers are faint lines that appear in the wtists, hips, inside of forearms, bicep, etc...They look like faint/thin lines of pressure that do not go away. Also, the skin tends to wrinkle or collect in those areas more than normal, when performing movements that contract the skin, ex. doing push ups will cause the skin to collect more in the wrist area when compared to a person with no bone loss.
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#43
Boron is also needed for bones, since it looks like boron is involved in the conversion of vitamin D into its active form. And lets say if you go into some kind of alkalosis and then get out of it. then all of a sudden you will be very low on calcium from food. And boron is needed to convert vitamin D to active form. And boron stops parathyroids from secreting PTH.

This is why some people cant tolerate magnesium. since the minute you take magnesium , body asks for the calcium. And if there is little boron, then the body will start taking this calcium from the bones.
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge on this. I'm going to implement extra measures based on your info.

Hopefully I'll see results in a years time.

One thing I keep in mind is that the body will take more time to regenerate, heal, grow than it does to deteriorate. This is due to the general principle that nature easily goes toward producing and using less energy.

I imagine bone recovery, if possible, is much like going into space. It's gonna take ALOT of energy to get the rocket to go against gravity.
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#44
You might have lactic acidosis which puts tons of pressure on calcium. Finasteride lowers NADPH, It might cause b1 deficiency , and without b1 you will have lactic acidosis.

Also you might try potassium bicarb. I know a person who I gave it to and he regrew the hole in his bone,. he had a bone cancer and cancer ate his bone and there was a hole. After I gave him potassium bicarb, the hole grew back.
What brand did of potassium bicarbonate did he take?
 

JasonSky

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2017
151
188
43
Los Angeles, California
#45
@Helen

From your understanding, is there any way to increase bone mass? I'm 22 but I've always had a lean build with small wrists/ankles etc. , so it would be nice to build up some mass if at all possible without HGH or something. I don't think I've lost any mass or density from PFS though
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#47
Furthermore, an under-active thyroid = under-active bone metabolism/building, that =, bone resorption aka bone loss.

Impact sports are what add to diameter/thickness such as basketball, martial arts, hockey, football.
The bones receiving the shock are the bones that will build thickness the most.
Shock = impact + weight/pressure. ex. tennis player has a larger elbow joint than non-tennis player

Weight training does help but it is sports that seem to provide greater benefit according to literature.

Remember that minerals must be present, testosterone, HGH, calcitonin, osteoblast/osteoclast in proper balance etc...

No current method to increase skull diameter in regards to jawline/chin presently known other than a possibility that applying the shock equation as seen in impact sports would provide growth. That is risky and unknown territory to my knowledge; except for random old footage one can find online of shaolin monks ramming their heads into sandbags(punching bags) and using their necks to bend steel rods. But one wonders how much of that footage is real or staged and still the question is what about jaw and chin? Perhaps some creativity is needed in this area? The search for a viable and proven solution in this region of skeleton continues.

More links about bone growth stimulation will be provided in near future.
 
Last edited:

Ingeno

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2018
512
253
63
London
#48
Furthermore, an under-active thyroid = under-active bone metabolism/building, that =, bone resorption aka bone loss.

Impact sports are what add to diameter/thickness such as basketball, martial arts, hockey, football.
The bones receiving the shock are the bones that will build thickness the most.
Shock = impact + weight. ex. tennis player has a larger elbow joint than non-tennis player

Weight training does help but it is sports that seem to provide greater benefit according to literature.

Remember that minerals must be present, testosterone, HGH, calcitonin, osteoblast/osteoclast in proper balance etc...

No current method to increase skull diameter in regards to jawline/chin presently known other than a possibility that applying the shock equation as seen in impact sports would provide growth. That is risky and unknown territory to my knowledge; except for random old footage one can find online of shaolin monks ramming their heads into sandbags and using their necks to bend steel rods. But one wonders how much of that footage is real or staged and still the question is what about jaw and chin? Perhaps some creativity is needed in this area? The search for a viable solution and proven solution in this region of skeleton continues.
There are people who megadosed vitamin k2 and experienced jaw widening, mostly on Ray Peat forum taking up to 45 mg.
 
Likes: Reverse

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#49
There are people who megadosed vitamin k2 and experienced jaw widening, mostly on Ray Peat forum taking up to 45 mg.
Thanks for this info. I haven't read of any progress made at ray peat forum except for what you stated.
Does the forum have before and after photos?
 

Ingeno

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2018
512
253
63
London
#50
Thanks for this info. I haven't read of any progress made at ray peat forum except for what you stated.
Does the forum have before and after photos?
Can't remember if there were photos. Also it is dangerous, there are people who experienced bone loss on k2 so it has different effects on different people.
 
Likes: Reverse

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#51
Can't remember if there were photos. Also it is dangerous, there are people who experienced bone loss on k2 so it has different effects on different people.
I'll look into it but i'm willing to bet there are no photos. Also yes its dangerous because the body must be prepared and healed to a certain point first or there is risk that taking bone related supplements will only leak into cells, tissue etc and or calcify certain areas of the body. That is my best estimation of why they had negative reactions.
 

Ingeno

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2018
512
253
63
London
#52
I'll look into it but i'm willing to bet there are no photos. Also yes its dangerous because the body must be prepared and healed to a certain point first or there is risk that taking bone related supplements will only leak into cells, tissue etc and or calcify certain areas of the body. That is my best estimation of why they had negative reactions.
I tried k2 and I thought I was going crazy, but my knees got more pointy and wrist got thinner, never really recovered from that. Probably took some important minerals out of my bones. Maybe it was just perception but on one day it was so obvious that I noticed it immediately.
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#53
I tried k2 and I thought I was going crazy, but my knees got more pointy and wrist got thinner, never really recovered from that. Probably took some important minerals out of my bones. Maybe it was just perception but on one day it was so obvious that I noticed it immediately.
Ouch, sorry to hear that.

General findings on ray peat for jaw line/ k2 is:

Supplement K2/M4 type. They say the M7 is very bad and will mess you up.
I couldn't find photos of anyone showing improvement.
K2 transdermal is better than in pill form.
They mention Mewing...i found it on youtube...doesn't look to be of significant help especially if bone metabolism is out of order.
Also, Trump has small hands...

of course he does, his entire skeletal structure has been melting away for years.
Hence the saggy neck and small chin etc.
The big shocker is how a guy like Trump ended up with pfs and didn't manage or cure it?
How did he let his bones get to that point? All that money and fame and the guy is ln that state?

edit:
The Trump situation might be due to several factors including incompetent doctors, and doctors who
lied to him because they didnt want lawsuits etc.
The greatest factor for him being so wasted from pfs...his ego
He probably just couldn't admit to himself that hes breaking down and didn't want to show weakness in his world. Another factor could be he is emulating the old school way of how men traditionally wouldn't get help or admit pain/weakness because men are supposed to just power through all the bullshit and not show weakness. smh.
 
Last edited:

5 alpha

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2017
453
200
43
#54
Is the mechanism by which finasteride decreases bone mass known or speculated? Would the same effect be seen in PSSD sufferers?
In my early PFS days before knowing what happened I was seen by one of the best endos in the United States. He diagnosed me with hypogonadism (low T) and ordered a bone density scan which he had the ability to do right there in his office . Why did an endocrinologist have a bone density scan machine in his office ? Because even several years ago it was known that low T in men can cause bone density issues. This is an easy one ....

Why would we continue to have bone density issues after our androgens show recovered on paper via time, TRT or herb cycling. For one of the same reasons we speculate why we continue to have ED after we recover our androgens. We don’t know but have theories
 
Last edited:

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#55
In my early PFS days before knowing what happened I was seen by one of the best endos in the United States. He diagnosed me with hypogonadism (low T) and ordered a bone density scan which he had the ability to do right there in his office . Why did an endocrinologist have a bone density scan machine in his office ? Because even several years ago it was known that low T in men can cause bone density issues. This is an easy one ....

Why would we continue to have bone density issues after our androgens show recovered on paper via time, TRT or herb cycling. For one of the same reasons we speculate why we continue to have ED after we recover our androgens. We don’t know but have theories
I think its partially because for many its not only about recovering testosterone. And weight lifting isn't enough.
Sports are probably needed according to everything I've read.
One sport that doesn't support bone mass is swimming.
Also, at an older age it requires much constant dedication for growth and maintenance.
 
Likes: 5 alpha

Boris

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Oct 3, 2017
2,739
2,257
113
#56
sprinting increase bone density big time for the entire body, tons of studies on it. Playing a specific sport is not needed
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#57
sprinting increase bone density big time for the entire body, tons of studies on it. Playing a specific sport is not needed
Sprinting may help bone mass in feet and legs to a degree but not other parts of the body at = rates.
Also sprinting does help by generating more HGH production in the body.

However, my sources indicate that repeated impact activity directly to a bone area yields the most bone mass increase.

Bone density is not = to Bone mass

Typically bone density = inner mineral content/strength of the bone

That is how research literature on the matter defines it.

If I'm wrong, please link your findings when you have the chance.
 

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#58
In my early PFS days before knowing what happened I was seen by one of the best endos in the United States. He diagnosed me with hypogonadism (low T) and ordered a bone density scan which he had the ability to do right there in his office . Why did an endocrinologist have a bone density scan machine in his office ? Because even several years ago it was known that low T in men can cause bone density issues. This is an easy one ....

Why would we continue to have bone density issues after our androgens show recovered on paper via time, TRT or herb cycling. For one of the same reasons we speculate why we continue to have ED after we recover our androgens. We don’t know but have theories
Bone density = inner bone mineral content and integrity
it doesn't exactly mean bone mass

think of it this way, if bone density were the issue, we'd be displaying signs of arthritis, osteoporosis.
Many of us would have fractures and broken bones. We wouldn't be able to lift weights.

What most of us are experiencing is bone resorption which seems to mean that it is the outer layers of the bones which are being diminished. It could be more of a osteoclast/osteoblast issue or hydroxyapetite or calcitonin, HGH etc...

Hence probably why many like Trump don't or didn't realize they have a bone issue.
Because I'm willing to bet bone density testing on us comes back clear.

Thereby we have many on the forums who will conclude its a fat or muscle loss when it isn't because most doctors don't look beyond Bone density tests. So the conclusion is "you don't have bone loss, its in your head, its fat loss, its muscle, etc.."
 
Last edited:

Reverse

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2017
352
173
43
U.S.A
LOCATION
U.S.A
#60
Warning***
Anyone reading this thinking "ok ill just go practice sport now or use another method to shock my bones then they'll grow more"

Dont do that unless youre confident that youve healed and balanced the underlying cause of your bone resorption.

You have a risk of causing acclerated rates of resorption if the foundation is not first in place. Because your bones metabolism is off. Please get your body primed and ready first such as minerals, thyroid, HGH, other hormones etc. If possible get full spectrum bone metabolism testing done first.